FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Martin]

This may be a bit like old news but I have only just found this site. It seems that McLaren was held responsible because of the activiries of 1 rogue employee, i.e. that the company is deemed liable for the actions of its employees. Quite right too, but, the data was passed by a rogue Ferrari employee, so sureley Ferrari is also responsible for the actions of its employees,? therefore is it not the case that Ferrari coluded in sending data to McLaren? and if so how can McLaren be penalised when it can be argued that Ferrari gave them their data?

[raithrover]

It's a point that many make and one overlooked by the media mostly. Frankly its been going on for years across many teams, after all many engineers move between such organisations and they won't leave behind their knowledge.

Was it the power of Ferrari and their influence on the FIA? I dunno, its all becoming a vicious circle and one we're not coming out of until the 2008 McLaren is out and given approval.

[Martin]

It's a point that many make and one overlooked by the media mostly. Frankly its been going on for years across many teams, after all many engineers move between such organisations and they won't leave behind their knowledge.

Was it the power of Ferrari and their influence on the FIA? I dunno, its all becoming a vicious circle and one we're not coming out of until the 2008 McLaren is out and given approval.

In a recent interview Max Moseley said, among other things , when asked about his relationship with di Montezemolo "With di Montezemolo it is different. He is chairman of Fiat and President of Italian business lobby Confindustria. My relationship with him is very personal."
and when asked if he was closer to di M than Ron Dennis he said "That is probably correct as I know Luca longer and therefore better than Ron. Indeed I’ve known Ron since 1970, but I became really acquainted with him at the end of the eighties, whereas I have known Luca very well since the beginning of the seventies."
So he's known Ron for nearly 40 years but only really for 20 years! How much time does one need for goodness sake? So, to your question about was it the power of Ferrari it quite possibly was. And as for Todts righteous indignation about being the poor victim perhaps someone should remind him that it was his serious management failier that allowed this situation to happen in the first place. Can you imagine that a senior exec of another company would still be in his job if an emplyee passed on so much confidential info to a competitor?
McLaren will not be over this until 2009 even if the 2008 car is OK (small pits at races etc). If the 2008 car does incorporate Ferrari design then there is a problem, but I would still argue that ferrari gave it to them so why should they not use it? I do see a case against the employees by their employers but not against McLaren
Obviously, as people move between companies then that is different, and it happens in all business, but passing confidential data from one to another is different.

[madbrad]

Ferrari parts would only slow the McLaren down.

[ArtHowe]

Well said Martin. I think Ferrari already recognise the fact that Todt is a liability. The only thing that has kept a useless turd like Todt around through previous seasons is the shadow of Ross Brawn. Taking him away for a season has resulted in the poison dwarf being exposed to the full glare of his inadequacies. He will dry up and blow away.

[Woodchip]

Hence the reason I detest Ferrari so much.

[pussycat]

Some people think (and they know who they are) that RD got what he deserved, rubbish!! It was as you say started by a disgruntled Ferrari employee. And further compounded by a silly little cry baby who didnt get his own way. Remember Ferrari won the constructors by default!! Kimi did a great job but they say RD should be gracious in defeat, but they in turn shouldnt have accepted the constructors.But they would never have accepted they had something to do with the spy scandal. Typical ferrari. They hate to lose!!! And have a <edited for content> for an ally.

[Gibraltar is Spain]

wasn't Ron aware of DLR testing developments from the Ferrari docs?

[bud]

wasn't Ron aware of DLR testing developments from the Ferrari docs?

Ron was never involved in this, which is why its pathetic that all the Ferrari lambs give Ron all the s*** about the spy case.

McLaren never tested anything from the documents, the emails which were damning in the eyes of Max Mosely were of Pedro talking to Mike, (friends since their Arrows days) about the Ferrari weight distribution.

[Mikep99]

There are hundreds of posts discussing this very subject so I don’t think we need to all go over it again.
Just do some searching & you will find detailed arguments for both sides.

But I must say it’s delusional to think that only Pedro & Mike were involved & that not one scrap of benefit could have been gained from all the data that was made available.
Sorry but I think if you look at it rationally it’s a no brainer

[Woodchip]

The only obvious benefit was getting ILLEGAL car parts removed from the Ferrari.

[Martin]

Wow, I only found this site a couple of days ago and posted a subject that was important to me but, I thought old news, but thanks to all that have responded.
Following your comments my conclusions are:-
1. That Ferrari did pass info to McLaren and therefore carry as much responsibility as McLaren.
2. That it is quite likely that some data was studied, at some level by others than just Mike & Pedro. Some engineers must have known.
3. Whether McL gained much from it I doubt,
4. Whether RD knew about it I also doubt.
5. Whether M.Moseleys 'special' "personal" & "close" relationship with di Montezemolo played a part in the heavy penalty against McL, and the lack of acknowledgement of Ferraris colusion and prime cause in the affair, (by passing data in the first place), makes it seem very likely to me.

Ferrari did not win the chamopionship but McLaren lost it, or had it taken.

I no longer have respect for Mosley, I feel that his position within FIA is untenable. (following the interview reffered to)

But the bottom line is folks - we can talk for ever but we will never really know.

[ArtHowe]

Eventually Ron will retire Martin and you can put your grandmother on the fact that he will write a definitive account of what actually happened. Like you, I don't believe he had any knowledge of what was happening when it was actually "going down". However, I'm fairly sure that he has a bloody good handle on the facts by the current stage of proceedings, as will one or two others. The truth generally manages to get out somehow in these situations... eventually.

[Ron Dennis]

Why are Ferrari allowed staff on the board of the FIA?