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[Denthúl]

First I would ask why you consider Heidfeld to be "the most consistent an understated F1 driver of the bunch". I only watched in 2011, but he didn't do much better (if at all) than Petrov, who no one considers to be particularly great. It also looks like he was consistently outperformed by Kubica at Sauber.

His time at Lotus alongside Petrov was odd, but at BMW Sauber he and Kubica were more or less even across the three and a half seasons.

What I'm getting at here is that he still would have had to race against Mark Webber in the same car. Would Heidfeld have beaten Webber in 2010? I'd say not. So if Webber wins in 2010, maybe he becomes the RBR golden boy and wins 4 WDC's in a row, while we sit here wondering why Heidfeld is treated like a #2 driver...

He'd been up against Webber before at Williams and until he was sidelined by injuries, they were pretty much even (Heidfeld had a slight edge: 28 points vs. 24, three podiums to Webber's one and a pole position, too). So who knows what would have happened if they'd have been together at Red Bull?

As you've brought up Kubica, I'd also have been very, very interested to see what he could do in a front-running team (even the Lotus for the past two years).

[CookinFlat6]

First I would ask why you consider Heidfeld to be "the most consistent an understated F1 driver of the bunch". I only watched in 2011, but he didn't do much better (if at all) than Petrov, who no one considers to be particularly great. It also looks like he was consistently outperformed by Kubica at Sauber.

What I'm getting at here is that he still would have had to race against Mark Webber in the same car. Would Heidfeld have beaten Webber in 2010? I'd say not. So if Webber wins in 2010, maybe he becomes the RBR golden boy and wins 4 WDC's in a row, while we sit here wondering why Heidfeld is treated like a #2 driver...

Heidfelds stats

Heidfeld currently holds three other records; he is the driver who has scored the highest number of world championship points without a Grand Prix win, holds the record for the most podium finishes without a Grand Prix win (13),[1] and has the most second place finishes without a win, with 8. He also holds the record for the most consecutive race classifications with a tally of 41.

Non of these were in a car that was best of the field, I say he would have won 2010 beating Webber by a higher margin
He beat Webber, Kimi, Massa and Kubica as teammates

If the team had then given him the same situation as Seb I say he would have 4 WDCs now

[acosmichippo]

He barely beat Kimi, Massa, and Kubica each in their rookie years. The second and third year he raced against Kubica, he was regularly beaten by Kubica.

In 2003, he was pretty evenly matched with Frentzen, except Frentzen got a podium, whereas Heidfeld did not.

Nothing too special happened at Jordan in 2004.

I don't agree that he beat Webber at williams in 2005. They looked pretty even there, so maybe it would have been closer at Red Bull in 2010.

don't have time to go through the rest at the moment...

[CookinFlat6]

My point is not that Heidfeld is a superstar in the Lewis or Alonso mould. The point is that he is a competent mistake free driver capable of bringing whatever car he is given home better even than Seb and Button

And he has matched more or less the drivers mentioned so it's not like he has issues with pressure from teammates or good drivers.

I was just curious to if anyone thought he would not win 4 WDCs given Sebs position, if so how many, put another way what's the difference between Nick, Button and Seb apart from having the right car?

Surely we would be saying Nick was an all time great had he driven the RBR given how good he is at the things Seb and Button are lauded for apart from their car

[acosmichippo]

Well I'd say the difference between Heidfeld and Vettel is Vettel was able to win in his second year with a midfield car. Something Nick was never able to do in his many years in F1.

[What's Burning?]

Well I'd say the difference between Heidfeld and Vettel is Vettel was able to win in his second year with a midfield car. Something Nick was never able to do in his many years in F1.

To be fair, Maldonado did the same thing as Vettel and he's having a hard time getting a seat even with a 40 million euro sponsorship purse.

[acosmichippo]

True. I was also going to bring up Maldonado, but he doesn't fit into the consistent, mistake-free driver mold CookinFlat is talking about. Even in the Toro Rosso, Seb was pretty consistent.

[Denthúl]

Well I'd say the difference between Heidfeld and Vettel is Vettel was able to win in his second year with a midfield car. Something Nick was never able to do in his many years in F1.

Yes, but that's ignoring circumstances surrounding the victory.

To be fair, Maldonado did the same thing as Vettel and he's having a hard time getting a seat even with a 40 million euro sponsorship purse.

I guess that says a lot about him as a driver...

[acosmichippo]

Well I'd say the difference between Heidfeld and Vettel is Vettel was able to win in his second year with a midfield car. Something Nick was never able to do in his many years in F1.

Yes, but that's ignoring circumstances surrounding the victory.

True, but Heidfeld had 11 years in F1 to benefit from similar circumstances. And if anything, I would have thought heavy rain would have shown even more clearly how talented Seb was. Heidfeld certainly didn't seize the opportunity.

[CookinFlat6]

Ok so Nick would not have won 4 WDCs in Sebs car because he didn't seize the chance to win in a Newey designed midfield car in the wet. So this singular bit of skill from Seb makes all the difference over Nick who is better at bringing home any car he is given in the points

And I'm guessing Maldo wouldn't do the same in Sebs car because although he won in a midfield car in his second year he is not a consistent finisher?

[1Lemon]

Maldo didn't do it in a rain filled race, he did it on pure speed; so maybe that's worth more than Seb's win in a Torro Rosso.

[acosmichippo]

Ok so Nick would not have won 4 WDCs in Sebs car because he didn't seize the chance to win in a Newey designed midfield car in the wet. So this singular bit of skill from Seb makes all the difference over Nick who is better at bringing home any car he is given in the points

I thought it was a common belief that rain is a great equalizer of hardware, and requires much talent to race in effectively. And Newey-designed cars were not exactly dominating in 2008, in fact not performing any better on the whole than the Sauber Heidfeld was using in the same race.

And I'm guessing Maldo wouldn't do the same in Sebs car because although he won in a midfield car in his second year he is not a consistent finisher?

Hey, I was only confining myself to the discussion you started regarding drivers who "bring the car home consistenly". Anyway, I'm not really sure what Maldonado would be able to do in a Red Bull, because yes, he *has* been very inconsistent. I'm sure he'd be great at times, but in others maybe not very good at all.

As an aside, I find your use of mock applause to be insulting and completely unnecessary.

[Big Azza]

Maldo didn't do it in a rain filled race, he did it on pure speed; so maybe that's worth more than Seb's win in a Torro Rosso.

Feel like I'm sounding like a Parrot again, but Vettel's entire 2007 and 2008 seasons demonstrated his potential.

Near podium finish at Fuji 2007, backed up by 4th in China the following race.

Started from the back row to finish 5th at Monaco in 2008 (the first F1 race I ever watched). Backed up with the win and a couple of 4th place finishes throughout that season.

Particularly him hounding Hamilton in Brazil that year, overtaking Hamilton's Mclaren, almost giving the title to Massa... All that with a 4 time Indy Car champion (and 3 time Le Mans podium-getter) as his team mate....

And Vettel was Heidfeld's team mate at BMW Sauber, although that's probably not worth looking into for much evidence...

[CookinFlat6]

The 2 Newey designed cars were the same chassis with different engines, the TR was betterthan Nicks Sauber and there were special circumstances. Remeber how well Sebs teammate did as well.

This poll is about Heidfeld vs Seb in the same car, the attributes that bring home the best car for 4 years are exactly those I believe Heidfeld to have similarly possessed. Its what Button had first half of 2009.

Its not as if Seb wins even when the car is not the best, its not like he dominated his teammate when the 2 had equal opportunity in 2010. Its not like he is know for doing what Alonso or Lewis do in lesser cars or for exceptional calmness and racecraft when carving through the field or overtaking others in equal cars

I reckon Nick would have won 2011 and 2013, 2010 also as he makes less mistakes than Seb. maybe 2012 Alonso would have had him.

So Nick is as great as Seb but more unlucky because he didnt get the car

[1Lemon]

I reckon Nick would have won 2011 and 2013, 2010 also as he makes less mistakes than Seb. maybe 2012 Alonso would have had him.

So Nick is as great as Seb but more unlucky because he didnt get the car

That's quite a statement to make; the truth is we will never know. I mean I think your wrong but it's pointless arguing cos' only in another universe has that happened.