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[andrew]

Vettel would be stupid to touch a Merc F1 car with the mucky end of a 20ft stick! They're cursed they are!

[The_Stig_Money]

I'm tellin you guys, neutrinos are the key.

The times would show on scoring before the rb8 crossed the line.

[Bubbie]

I think I read on here something about Vettel being very good at working with the engineers to help work out bugs with a car. I wouldn't count him out unless he was given a real dog of a car like Niko and Michael have been saddled with this year.

[andrew]

I've heard that too. I recall some other German chap being reported as doing the same.

[AKR]

I'd like to see Vettel do a Schumacher but not at Ferrari. Perhaps at Mercedes.

He will only ever do that at Ferrari, just like Schumi since Ferrari are the only team worth doing it with. Now before you snap back at me just think about it. Look at Schumi after he went to Ferrari and won all those titles. One may argue that had he did it for a different team that he would still be as equally as legendary today. Maybe so in the world of F1 with people who know F1. But not outside the world of F1. That is the Ferrari difference. People who know nothing about F1 all know what Ferrari is and that they race also in a sport called F1 apart from building great road cars and racing in other categories of motorsport. Other makes in F1 do not have this perception to those who know nothing about F1 which I am afraid is most of the whole world. So get the person from the street who knows nothing about F1 and mention Schumacher, 5 times World Champion for Ferrari and they all know it means series business. Pretend it were with McLaren and the same person would say what? What is a McLaren? Is this Schumacher of McLaren in the business of high speed performance racing? So who was the last Indycar champ? Vettel to Ferrari and winning more titles = legendary status like Schumi. Anywhere else is by far a lesser status.

[andrew]

Schumacher would still be a sports legend if he hadn't won 5 titles with Ferrari. He could have done it for McLaren or Williams or Renault et etc. All F1 teams are big in their own way. You do know that Ferrari are just an F1 team and a manufacturer of overpriced and impractical cars and not the centre of the known universe?

[AKR]

You do know that Ferrari are just an F1 team and a manufacturer of overpriced and impractical cars and not the centre of the known universe?

Go tell that to all the people who are not F1 fans. They will tell you that Ferraris look good anf go fast and cost a lot of money. Then go tell them about Renault and the answer it that they are an everyday affordable cheap car, and then tell them about Mercedes and they will day they are an expensive luxury car, but not an exotic sports car for speed and looks like Ferrari. Then mention McLaren and they will have no idea. This is what most people in your street would know. Thus drive and win for Ferrari because everyone will know your name, not just F1 fans. Remember, Honour and Glory are Forever.

[bud]

In that case, I think more people in the world would know what RedBull is...

[andrew]

You do know that Ferrari are just an F1 team and a manufacturer of overpriced and impractical cars and not the centre of the known universe?

Go tell that to all the people who are not F1 fans. They will tell you that Ferraris look good anf go fast and cost a lot of money. Then go tell them about Renault and the answer it that they are an everyday affordable cheap car, and then tell them about Mercedes and they will day they are an expensive luxury car, but not an exotic sports car for speed and looks like Ferrari. Then mention McLaren and they will have no idea. This is what most people in your street would know. Thus drive and win for Ferrari because everyone will know your name, not just F1 fans. Remember, Honour and Glory are Forever.

You must he hanging about with some very sheltered people who obviously never read a newspaper. I think you are over-playing the Ferrari name a great deal, but as Bud says more people will be familiar with Red Bull. Ferrari are not the force they once were and you will not convince me otherwise that they are anything more than just another F1 team that like to over-hype their history.

My point was that I'd like to see Vettel go to a mediocre team and be instrumental in helping them become the best out there. Ferrari is not a nessesity for this. It could be done with Merc or Renault.

[Bubbie]

You do know that Ferrari are just an F1 team and a manufacturer of overpriced and impractical cars and not the centre of the known universe?

Go tell that to all the people who are not F1 fans. They will tell you that Ferraris look good anf go fast and cost a lot of money. Then go tell them about Renault and the answer it that they are an everyday affordable cheap car, and then tell them about Mercedes and they will day they are an expensive luxury car, but not an exotic sports car for speed and looks like Ferrari. Then mention McLaren and they will have no idea. This is what most people in your street would know. Thus drive and win for Ferrari because everyone will know your name, not just F1 fans. Remember, Honour and Glory are Forever.

You are kidding if you think Ferrari's global reputation is all based on F1, or F1 based on Ferrari, or that as Andrew said Ferrari is the end all of either.

With regards to the former, there are exotic cars that have nothing to do with F1 that are known on the same level as Ferrari. Lamborghini, Porsche, even Mclaren and Bugatti are all names that pop up when you talk about Supercars. The McLaren F1 and MP4-12C both destroy their competition from all the other manufacturers. The rap guys love the Lambos. The Bugatti is the finest piece of machinery built to date. Ferrari makes fantastic, sexy cars but they are not the last word in Supercars.

With regards to the latter, F1 would survive, possibly even thrive without Ferrari. There are two other top teams who seem to be in it for the long haul and many names all down the field that have been there for a long time. Perhaps F1 could even pick up more big name constructors if it wasn't for the favoritism that is shown Ferrari and the sway they hold in terms of the rules and regulations due to that favoritism.

Regardless of what they do off the track, a Formula One team is measured by two things. The World Driver's Championship and the World Constructors Championship. As a member of the "Ferrari can do no wrong" cult, I am sure you need to keep believing that F1 is Ferrari to keep from jumping off a bridge with how terrible they have been the last couple years. But you are sorely mistaken. And the suits at Ferrari are going to play chicken with the FIA one too many times some day and learn that the hard way.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Brawn has selective amnesia. Vettel came better in WDC in 2008 -- in a Toro Rosso -- than either of his drivers.

He means a slower car now he has a couple titles under his belt. Basically comparing him to Schumacher is all he is doing here. Schumi won two in a row for Benetton then went to Ferrari who were not a top dog of a team when he got there.

Neither was Red Bull a "top dog" team when Vettel arrived. His 2008 result -- in a Toro Rosso -- also was better than that of either of Red Bull's drivers.

Why Vettel is already an all-time great

Published: 11/10/11, 03:33PM

When a driver utterly dominates a season, it is almost easier for their achievements to be denigrated than if they had scrapped to a crown at the last gasp.

New double champion Sebastian Vettel has now seen both sides of the coin – winning arguably Formula 1's most close-fought title race ever in 2010, and then absolutely running away with things this season.

Those who cheered his remarkable underdog success when he pulled off one of the most unlikely victories of all time by winning the wet 2008 Italian Grand Prix for Toro Rosso may well have sat sour-faced through his nine 2011 wins (and counting)...

The theory seems to be that the actual talent difference between drivers is so small, that for anyone to blitz a season must be down to the car rather than the man behind the wheel.

Nigel Mansell's ultra-determined, battling performances in years where he had a stab at the title but fell heroically short are remembered with far more affection than his steamroller path to the 1992 championship in the uncatchable Williams, for instance.

And likewise, only fanatical Michael Schumacher and Ferrari fans will see his 2002 and 2004 crowns – taken with 11 and 13 race wins respectively – as halcyon days for F1, whereas beating the quicker Williams to the 1995 title with Benetton and taking Ferrari back to the top by narrowly defeating Mika Hakkinen and McLaren in 2000 are regarded as classic achievements, and rightly so.

The difference this year is that Vettel and Red Bull have only very rarely had the level of performance advantage that Schumacher and Mansell had at their most dominant.

As Japan proved, McLaren and Ferrari are – on their day – more than a match for what Adrian Newey and his colleagues created for Vettel to sit in, and Suzuka was far from the only close race.

That's not to say that the Red Bull isn't the best car, but that its edge is nowhere near as big as the points table suggests.

Vettel is not a man who has had a dominant car fell into his lap; he's a man who has spectacularly exploited every drop of potential that a great car has to offer. It's been about maximising his chances rather than strolling around in a car that's a true class apart.

Most tellingly, look at the gap between Vettel and team-mate Mark Webber.

When Mansell and Schumacher were being imperious, their respective team-mates Riccardo Patrese and Rubens Barrichello were invariably following them home or there to collect the wins the team leaders dropped.

But this season's 15 races have seen only five all-Red Bull front rows, and just two Red Bull one-two finishes. Webber has yet to win this year, has only three poles to Vettel's 12, and is 130 points behind.

And few could argue that Webber isn't on a par with Patrese and Barrichello. The tough Aussie is not a dutiful number two brought in to keep the peace and let Vettel get on with winning – he's a serious grand prix winner who came close to the title in 2010 in his own right. Yet only rarely has he been able to get anywhere near as much out of the 2011 Red Bull as his unstoppable team-mate.

The 2011 season also features more quirks intended to stop domination than any other year in Formula 1 history.

Entertaining the fans is an increasing priority, so the years of a purist belief that the F1 format should be kept simple and focused on letting drivers and teams go as fast as they could – and that if this meant the odd period of monotonous dominance, so be it – are over.

Pirelli has brought tyres deliberately designed to wear faster than would be ideal. DRS has been created specifically to give drivers a chance of overtaking the car in front.

Other smaller intricacies like KERS and knockout qualifying are not exactly there to help the fastest man get faster either.

In fact much of the 2011 F1 rules package is about creating circumstances to trip people up, to make races more open, and to make it harder to cruise clear.

And yet on the results sheets, Vettel's stats are among the most dominant of all time.

In one of the most competitive and complicated eras F1 has seen, he's shrugging off the skilfully placed banana skins designed to keep the championship interesting, and emphatically stamping his authority on proceedings.

And that takes more than just a very good car.

Regardless of the equipment he has had at his disposal, Vettel's pure statistical achievements in both winning two titles and successfully defending a championship already rank him among the greats.

Only Fernando Alonso, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Jack Brabham, Juan Manuel Fangio and Alberto Ascari have ever pulled off back-to-back titles before Vettel's success.

And in having two crowns to his name (for now at least, for more will surely follow), Vettel now nestles alongside not only Hakkinen, Alonso and Ascari, but also Jim Clark, Graham Hill and Emerson Fittipaldi in the record books.

None of those names is ever going to be forgotten, all are regarded as true greats of the sport – and by equalling their achievements, that is exactly what Vettel is now.

And he's only 24. When Schumacher was 24, his tally stood at one GP win and zero titles...

This story has a long way to go yet, and anyone who might still be sceptical about where Vettel sits in the F1 pantheon might very well be eating their words in not too many years' time.

[darwin dali]

Who's the author?

[What's Burning?]

^^ Vettel is a two time WDC, back to back no less and many congratulations to him on the achievement but the implications being made in this write up are ridiculous. Not only is it delusional to say that the car isn't the big factor... I'd go as much as to say that it's not just the car that's been dominant but the team itself, dominant in the reliability dominant in pit stop performance and dominant in strategy.

[mnmracer]

^^ Vettel is a two time WDC, back to back no less and many congratulations to him on the achievement but the implications being made in this write up are ridiculous. Not only is it delusional to say that the car isn't the big factor... I'd go as much as to say that it's not just the car that's been dominant but the team itself, dominant in the reliability dominant in pit stop performance and dominant in strategy.

Read the bit about Mark Webber again...

[What's Burning?]

^^ Vettel is a two time WDC, back to back no less and many congratulations to him on the achievement but the implications being made in this write up are ridiculous. Not only is it delusional to say that the car isn't the big factor... I'd go as much as to say that it's not just the car that's been dominant but the team itself, dominant in the reliability dominant in pit stop performance and dominant in strategy.

Read the bit about Mark Webber again...

We've established that Mark is substantially worse than Vettel (maybe something about the tires, but I doubt it's simply that) so not dispute there, similar to how Massa is performing as compared to Alonso. However that's the only quantifiable conclusion that can be made, anything more than that is subjective.