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[myownalias]

Edit : You know what though i am pretty sure you will reply with how i am wrong so i think ill just stop trying to convince you of something you are clearly too blinded by red to see.

Silly statement, if you want to challenge me that's fine, I enjoy the discussion, but don't try and diminish my contentions by deriding me for being a Ferrari fan.

Indeed; doesn't matter what colours a member decides to wear, accusing a member of being blinded by any team colours is unfair. I find spankyham to be very knowledgeable and does his research before posting a considered response. Peng; if you don't have a valid counter argument, keep your fingers away from the keyboard; saying someone is blinded by red is tantamount to personal insult which is not allowed on this forum, as my mother used to say "if you have nothing nice to say... say nothing at all!".

[bud]

accusing a Ferrari fan of bias towards Ferrari isnt nice. It is after all un heard of

[myownalias]

accusing a Ferrari fan of bias towards Ferrari isnt nice. It is after all un heard of

Of course you are going to be biased towards a team if you support them but Peng's added response was not needed really, it added nothing to the post except to provoke a heated response from the quotee!

[vaptin]

It seems fairly clear team order were being given in Turkey by McLaren, they just weren't obeyed. "Will Jenson try to pass me",
"No".
How can the engineer be so sure?
After the race; Lewis: "What happened there"? (his body language wasn't too positive either).
Lewis diddn't think Jenson was going to try and pass him, but he did. . .

If you consider how public Jenson has been about team orders, reading between the lines. . .

In reference to the WMSC hearing, it doesn't matter about this specific incident though, just that the FIA admitted other teams had used team orders in the past, but weren't punished for it, although seeing as this thread is called "team orders at McLaren", it's relevant, just not for the reasons it was being brought up.

[Jensonb]

It seems fairly clear team order were being given in Turkey by McLaren, they just weren't obeyed. "Will Jenson try to pass me",
"No".
How can the engineer be so sure?
After the race; Lewis: "What happened there"? (his body language wasn't too positive either).
Lewis diddn't think Jenson was going to try and pass him, but he did. . .

The engineer was mistaken. People make mistakes, it happens.

saying someone is blinded by red is tantamount to personal insult which is not allowed on this forum

No it isn't. Accusing someone of bias may not be the strongest form of argument in the world, but it's not anything even remotely close to being a personal insult.

[darwin dali]

No where in that does it refer to a specific incident so i wouldn't call the proof that the WMSC believe the Turkey incident was team orders, you can read that however you like but i can think of several times in recent years that i would consider team orders that they have mentioned and Turkey wouldn't be 1 of them.

Didn't Ferrari in their defense invoke exactly the Turkish GP 2010 with the LH/JB shenanigans???

That is what i asked him to post or give me a link to as i find it amusing the battling in turkey can even be remotely considered similar to the that happened in Germany but he wont or cba to give me a link so its fine.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... cision.pdf

Page 4.

[spankyham]

No where in that does it refer to a specific incident so i wouldn't call the proof that the WMSC believe the Turkey incident was team orders, you can read that however you like but i can think of several times in recent years that i would consider team orders that they have mentioned and Turkey wouldn't be 1 of them.

Didn't Ferrari in their defense invoke exactly the Turkish GP 2010 with the LH/JB shenanigans???

That is what i asked him to post or give me a link to as i find it amusing the battling in turkey can even be remotely considered similar to the that happened in Germany but he wont or cba to give me a link so its fine.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... cision.pdf

Page 4.

Thanks, I had already posted the link but perhaps he hadn't seen it.

[racechick]

Whats the point of giving that link? I posted it ages ago. Fact is Turkey and the Ferrari nonsense were nothing alike. There are no team orders that require one driver to defer to another at McLaren.

[spankyham]

Whats the point of giving that link? I posted it ages ago. Fact is Turkey and the Ferrari nonsense were nothing alike. There are no team orders that require one driver to defer to another at McLaren.

I gave the link because Peng asked for it - I like to help out when I can

Fact is Turkey and Ferrari incident were both breaches of 39.1 Team Orders rule, which has been confirmed in the decision of the WMSC. You might say the judges were wrong, fair enough, but the prisons are full of people who say the judge was wrong

There are team orders at McLaren and they effect race results

[racechick]

Whats the point of giving that link? I posted it ages ago. Fact is Turkey and the Ferrari nonsense were nothing alike. There are no team orders that require one driver to defer to another at McLaren.

I gave the link because Peng asked for it - I like to help out when I can

Fact is Turkey and Ferrari incident were both breaches of 39.1 Team Orders rule, which has been confirmed in the decision of the WMSC. You might say the judges were wrong, fair enough, but the prisons are full of people who say the judge was wrong

There are team orders at McLaren and they effect race results

Well the Turkey one didnt breach the intention of the rule. The ferrari one did, and thats why they were found guilty.
If the FIA want to look at this, maybe they should tgighten up the wording to say Race orders may not favour or handicap one driveres chance of competing fairly. But whatever they do they'll leave huge gapping holes in the rules so that they can punish or let off as they see fit.

[spankyham]

Well the Turkey one didnt breach the intention of the rule. The ferrari one did, and thats why they were found guilty.

Oh come on!!! Read what you just wrote.
You are now saying that you know what the intention of a rule is, and we shouldn't make decisions based on what rules state, we should make decisions based on what someone thinks their interpretation of the intention of the rule is.
I'm sure fans from both sides could never misuse that sort of process

If the FIA want to look at this, maybe they should tgighten up the wording to say Race orders may not favour or handicap one driveres chance of competing fairly. But whatever they do they'll leave huge gapping holes in the rules so that they can punish or let off as they see fit.

I just said about that I think as a second choice, your two rule proposal could work. But I still also think the best solution is to get rid of the stupid rule.

[Juliet P]

No where in that does it refer to a specific incident so i wouldn't call the proof that the WMSC believe the Turkey incident was team orders, you can read that however you like but i can think of several times in recent years that i would consider team orders that they have mentioned and Turkey wouldn't be 1 of them.

Didn't Ferrari in their defense invoke exactly the Turkish GP 2010 with the LH/JB shenanigans???

That is what i asked him to post or give me a link to as i find it amusing the battling in turkey can even be remotely considered similar to the that happened in Germany but he wont or cba to give me a link so its fine.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pr ... cision.pdf

Page 4.

Thanks, I had already posted the link but perhaps he hadn't seen it.

That link proves nothing. The section on page 4 is part of Ferrari's response to the charges. At no point does the report say that the FIA agrees with Ferrari that the Turkey incident was team orders. If so, surely Mclaren would have been fined too.

[spankyham]

That link proves nothing. The section on page 4 is part of Ferrari's response to the charges. At no point does the report say that the FIA agrees with Ferrari that the Turkey incident was team orders. If so, surely Mclaren would have been fined too.

It's really starting to hit home now.
Sadly for you it proves everything.
1) You have identified where Ferrari presents to the court it's evidence that Team Orders had occurred at Germany 2008 and Turkey 2010.
2) A hearing can only pass judgment and comment on evidence that has been presented - a maxim of law
3) Now, go read the decision of the hearing. Its on page 8 strangely enough under the section "Decision" (6C). It clearly states there has been inconsistency in the application of the team orders rule. Now, that is fully established, I'd like to ask all those who started baying for blood (and drivers to loose points) at the start of this trumped up farce if they are going to start calling Felipe the real WDC for 2008
Somehow I think they will all be desperately searching for a loophole to get them out of their pickle.

[bud]

Stop going on about massa being 08 champ cos of Germany have you conveniently forgotten when kimi pulled over for massa in china I think it was! Not to mention the Spa BS! Lewis was the deserving champion in 08 so show some respect!

[spankyham]

Stop going on about massa being 08 champ cos of Germany have you conveniently forgotten when kimi pulled over for massa in china I think it was! Not to mention the Spa BS! Lewis was the deserving champion in 08 so show some respect!

Don't forget I'm in favour of team orders, so for me, Heikki moving over for Lewis is England, France and Germany is ok, even good. In fact it made the WDC interesting that year, if McLaren hadn't issued those team orders it wouldn't have been the close contest it was, cause the WCC was a foregone conclusion before we even got halfway through the season.