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[Denthúl]

It really doesn't matter if Hamilton was persuaded or even flat out told to lie, he still lied. Had he stuck to the truth he would have saved McLaren from all this official mess. Yes it would have been ugly in the garage or the conference rooms but that would have been behind closed doors and not punishable by the FIA. So IMHO if LH had stuck to his pre and post hearing truthfulness the team would be spared any fines, suspensions etc.
And then we all could hail LH as a true champion and leader, on his way to being one of the true greats of the Jackie Stewart kind. But now we are left to think he is just another spoiled immature child being led by others. He should have stood up and led and he didn't.

Yep Hamilton is apart of the team he is as much to blame as the guy telling him to lie. Hamilton knew what he was doing and what saying what he said would do to Trulli and Toyota. Alright he thought he deserved 3rd while Trulli didnt but Trulli didnt deserve to get 25 seconds added to his race time.

to the both of you.

Indeed there really is no case to support Hamilton. He does not deserve to go unpunished. Especially if Mclaren are sunk. (Oh I wanna play Battleships now)

It's now quite clear that you've reached the state where you have fallen for the ploy.

[darwin dali]

It really doesn't matter if Hamilton was persuaded or even flat out told to lie, he still lied. Had he stuck to the truth he would have saved McLaren from all this official mess. Yes it would have been ugly in the garage or the conference rooms but that would have been behind closed doors and not punishable by the FIA. So IMHO if LH had stuck to his pre and post hearing truthfulness the team would be spared any fines, suspensions etc.
And then we all could hail LH as a true champion and leader, on his way to being one of the true greats of the Jackie Stewart kind. But now we are left to think he is just another spoiled immature child being led by others. He should have stood up and led and he didn't.

Yep Hamilton is apart of the team he is as much to blame as the guy telling him to lie. Hamilton knew what he was doing and what saying what he said would do to Trulli and Toyota. Alright he thought he deserved 3rd while Trulli didnt but Trulli didnt deserve to get 25 seconds added to his race time.

to the both of you.

Indeed there really is no case to support Hamilton. He does not deserve to go unpunished. Especially if Mclaren are sunk. (Oh I wanna play Battleships now)

It's now quite clear that you've reached the state where you have fallen for the ploy.

...and drunk the Kool-aid

[racechick]

It really doesn't matter if Hamilton was persuaded or even flat out told to lie, he still lied. Had he stuck to the truth he would have saved McLaren from all this official mess. Yes it would have been ugly in the garage or the conference rooms but that would have been behind closed doors and not punishable by the FIA. So IMHO if LH had stuck to his pre and post hearing truthfulness the team would be spared any fines, suspensions etc.
And then we all could hail LH as a true champion and leader, on his way to being one of the true greats of the Jackie Stewart kind. But now we are left to think he is just another spoiled immature child being led by others. He should have stood up and led and he didn't.

Yep Hamilton is apart of the team he is as much to blame as the guy telling him to lie. Hamilton knew what he was doing and what saying what he said would do to Trulli and Toyota. Alright he thought he deserved 3rd while Trulli didnt but Trulli didnt deserve to get 25 seconds added to his race time.

to the both of you.

Indeed there really is no case to support Hamilton. He does not deserve to go unpunished. Especially if Mclaren are sunk. (Oh I wanna play Battleships now)

It's now quite clear that you've reached the state where you have fallen for the ploy.

...and drunk the Kool-aid

Are you and Ewman in collusion here???

[Tony_sa]

Hey Anna .. they being pretty hard on the poor little guy - dont you think?

[EwanM]

See this is what I don't get with some posters on here. I am often puzzled as to where their loyalties lie. Is it with Mclaren as a team or is it with Hamilton himself? If it is the latter, do you simply jump on the Mclaren bandwagon because he drives for them? Seems so.
I don't know how these fans can post on here and constantly defend Lewis Hamilton and his actions. Why are you putting one man over the hundreds of employees working for Mclaren? Why should he be allowed to walk off Scot free while the team are forced to completely bite the bullet?
Why should a man who has been part of the company for longer than most of us here have been alive, be forced out and used seemingly as a scapegoat to either cover up botched mismanagement or the actions of their driver?
You call all carry on waving the Mclaren banner when it suits you - wearing the merchandise, sounding off on this and that, but this whole incident has shown me which users really do care about Mclaren and would put the team infront of any overpaid superstar driver.
If Hamilton leaves this year, or whenever it may be, don't post on here waving your (what ever team he chooses) .

[kerc]

See this is what I don't get with some posters on here. I am often puzzled as to where their loyalties lie. Is it with Mclaren as a team or is it with Hamilton himself? If it is the latter, do you simply jump on the Mclaren bandwagon because he drives for them? Seems so.
I don't know how these fans can post on here and constantly defend Lewis Hamilton and his actions. Why are you putting one man over the hundreds of employees working for Mclaren? Why should he be allowed to walk off Scot free while the team are forced to completely bite the bullet?
Why should a man who has been part of the company for longer than most of us here have been alive, be forced out and used seemingly as a scapegoat to either cover up botched mismanagement or the actions of their driver?
You call all carry on waving the Mclaren banner when it suits you - wearing the merchandise, sounding off on this and that, but this whole incident has shown me which users really do care about Mclaren and would put the team infront of any overpaid superstar driver.
If Hamilton leaves this year, or whenever it may be, don't post on here waving your (what ever team he chooses) .

In this thread at least, I haven't seen anyone defending Lewis. I see people discussing possible motives, reasons, etc. about this issue. No one has said "Hamilton is innocent", or words to that effect.

Like I said before, one thing is finding out the possible reasons and motivations for their actions, another thing entirely is justifying those actions.

I see no justifications being written here.

[EwanM]

See this is what I don't get with some posters on here. I am often puzzled as to where their loyalties lie. Is it with Mclaren as a team or is it with Hamilton himself? If it is the latter, do you simply jump on the Mclaren bandwagon because he drives for them? Seems so.
I don't know how these fans can post on here and constantly defend Lewis Hamilton and his actions. Why are you putting one man over the hundreds of employees working for Mclaren? Why should he be allowed to walk off Scot free while the team are forced to completely bite the bullet?
Why should a man who has been part of the company for longer than most of us here have been alive, be forced out and used seemingly as a scapegoat to either cover up botched mismanagement or the actions of their driver?
You call all carry on waving the Mclaren banner when it suits you - wearing the merchandise, sounding off on this and that, but this whole incident has shown me which users really do care about Mclaren and would put the team infront of any overpaid superstar driver.
If Hamilton leaves this year, or whenever it may be, don't post on here waving your (what ever team he chooses) .

In this thread at least, I haven't seen anyone defending Lewis. I see people discussing possible motives, reasons, etc. about this issue. No one has said "Hamilton is innocent", or words to that effect.

Like I said before, one thing is finding out the possible reasons and motivations for their actions, another thing entirely is justifying those actions.

I see no justifications being written here.

Granted, nobody has directly said "I defend Hamilton", but it has existed indirectly on this thread and in others.
Read back in this thread - such examples include "Hamilton is immature" - surely that is defence?

[Jensonb]

See this is what I don't get with some posters on here. I am often puzzled as to where their loyalties lie. Is it with Mclaren as a team or is it with Hamilton himself? If it is the latter, do you simply jump on the Mclaren bandwagon because he drives for them? Seems so.
I don't know how these fans can post on here and constantly defend Lewis Hamilton and his actions. Why are you putting one man over the hundreds of employees working for Mclaren? Why should he be allowed to walk off Scot free while the team are forced to completely bite the bullet?
Why should a man who has been part of the company for longer than most of us here have been alive, be forced out and used seemingly as a scapegoat to either cover up botched mismanagement or the actions of their driver?
You call all carry on waving the Mclaren banner when it suits you - wearing the merchandise, sounding off on this and that, but this whole incident has shown me which users really do care about Mclaren and would put the team infront of any overpaid superstar driver.
If Hamilton leaves this year, or whenever it may be, don't post on here waving your (what ever team he chooses) .

In this thread at least, I haven't seen anyone defending Lewis. I see people discussing possible motives, reasons, etc. about this issue. No one has said "Hamilton is innocent", or words to that effect.

Like I said before, one thing is finding out the possible reasons and motivations for their actions, another thing entirely is justifying those actions.

I see no justifications being written here.

Hogwash. By deflecting blame from Hamilton and onto Dave Ryan, they are defending Hamilton.

This sums up my (And many others' it seems) opinion of the events pretty neatly.

[kerc]

See this is what I don't get with some posters on here. I am often puzzled as to where their loyalties lie. Is it with Mclaren as a team or is it with Hamilton himself? If it is the latter, do you simply jump on the Mclaren bandwagon because he drives for them? Seems so.
I don't know how these fans can post on here and constantly defend Lewis Hamilton and his actions. Why are you putting one man over the hundreds of employees working for Mclaren? Why should he be allowed to walk off Scot free while the team are forced to completely bite the bullet?
Why should a man who has been part of the company for longer than most of us here have been alive, be forced out and used seemingly as a scapegoat to either cover up botched mismanagement or the actions of their driver?
You call all carry on waving the Mclaren banner when it suits you - wearing the merchandise, sounding off on this and that, but this whole incident has shown me which users really do care about Mclaren and would put the team infront of any overpaid superstar driver.
If Hamilton leaves this year, or whenever it may be, don't post on here waving your (what ever team he chooses) .

In this thread at least, I haven't seen anyone defending Lewis. I see people discussing possible motives, reasons, etc. about this issue. No one has said "Hamilton is innocent", or words to that effect.

Like I said before, one thing is finding out the possible reasons and motivations for their actions, another thing entirely is justifying those actions.

I see no justifications being written here.

Granted, nobody has directly said "I defend Hamilton", but it has existed indirectly on this thread and in others.
Read back in this thread - such examples include "Hamilton is immature" - surely that is defence?

No. It's (apparently) a fact. He should've handled things differently, that's perfectly clear. Saying he's immature in that respect is not a defense, just one of the factors seen in this mess.

[Tony_sa]

Let him go back to carting !!!! sorry racechick.....

[kerc]

Hogwash. By deflecting blame from Hamilton and onto Dave Ryan, they are defending Hamilton.

This sums up my (And many others' it seems) opinion of the events pretty neatly.

No hogwash. No one is deflecting Hamilton's part of the blame. At least not in this particular thread.

[Jensonb]

Hogwash. By deflecting blame from Hamilton and onto Dave Ryan, they are defending Hamilton.

This sums up my (And many others' it seems) opinion of the events pretty neatly.

No hogwash. No one is deflecting Hamilton's part of the blame. At least not in this particular thread.

Blaming Dave Ryan is deflecting the blame from Hamilton. Hamilton is at least as culpable as Dave. It does not matter if he was told to lie, he is a fully grown adult human, he is perfectly capable of saying "No". Immature nothing, refusing to say no when you know something's wrong is either spineless, absolutely moronic or implicit endorsement.

Also, his apology is a joke. "I was misled"...I still want to know what the hell that's supposed to mean? Are we to assume that Lewis Hamilton is so stupid that Dave Ryan was able to say "If you do what I say, you will get a lifetime's supply of lollipops" and Hamilton simply fell into line, ignoring the fact he'd already told the truth?

He's either an idiot, a cheat or (more likely) both. Dave Ryan does not deserve this crap and Lewis Hamilton does not deserve any defense.

[kerc]

Hogwash. By deflecting blame from Hamilton and onto Dave Ryan, they are defending Hamilton.

This sums up my (And many others' it seems) opinion of the events pretty neatly.

No hogwash. No one is deflecting Hamilton's part of the blame. At least not in this particular thread.

Blaming Dave Ryan is deflecting the blame from Hamilton. Hamilton is at least as culpable as Dave. It does not matter if he was told to lie, he is a fully grown adult human, he is perfectly capable of saying "No". Immature nothing, refusing to say no when you know something's wrong is either spineless, absolutely moronic or implicit endorsement.

Also, his apology is a joke. "I was misled"...I still want to know what the hell that's supposed to mean? Are we to assume that Lewis Hamilton is so stupid that Dave Ryan was able to say "If you do what I say, you will get a lifetime's supply of lollipops" and Hamilton simply fell into line, ignoring the fact he'd already told the truth?

He's either an idiot, a cheat or (more likely) both. Dave Ryan does not deserve this crap and Lewis Hamilton does not deserve any defense.

Whoa.

Man, are you really reading what I post? I mean...I agree 100% with you. But isn't Lewis behavior showing, among other things, his immaturity when dealing with all these things? I am not excusing his behavior. I haven't said Ryan was guilty and he was not.

[McLaren Fan]

As I said on the other thread just there, even if Hamilton was naive, it changes absolutely nothing, because he was still complicit it what happened. Following very similar logic, one could absolve Ryan, claiming he was naive, made his decision spur of the moment and as a result of feeling guilty. Regardless of the mitigating circumstances, wrongdoing happened.

[Jensonb]

Hogwash. By deflecting blame from Hamilton and onto Dave Ryan, they are defending Hamilton.

This sums up my (And many others' it seems) opinion of the events pretty neatly.

No hogwash. No one is deflecting Hamilton's part of the blame. At least not in this particular thread.

Blaming Dave Ryan is deflecting the blame from Hamilton. Hamilton is at least as culpable as Dave. It does not matter if he was told to lie, he is a fully grown adult human, he is perfectly capable of saying "No". Immature nothing, refusing to say no when you know something's wrong is either spineless, absolutely moronic or implicit endorsement.

Also, his apology is a joke. "I was misled"...I still want to know what the hell that's supposed to mean? Are we to assume that Lewis Hamilton is so stupid that Dave Ryan was able to say "If you do what I say, you will get a lifetime's supply of lollipops" and Hamilton simply fell into line, ignoring the fact he'd already told the truth?

He's either an idiot, a cheat or (more likely) both. Dave Ryan does not deserve this crap and Lewis Hamilton does not deserve any defense.

Whoa.

Man, are you really reading what I post? I mean...I agree 100% with you. But isn't Lewis behavior showing, among other things, his immaturity when dealing with all these things? I am not excusing his behavior. I haven't said Ryan was guilty and he was not.

Yes, I am, and none of it mentioned what you thought, it was about the thread.

As for your point there, I have said it before and I'll say it again.

Immaturity and lack of wisdom are no excuse for spinelessness, stupidity and cheating. And youth is in turn no excuse for immaturity and lack of wisdom - especially not at his age, with the life he claims to have led and in the position he is in.