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[CookinFlat6]

When in the Mea Culpa triangle, the way to break its power would be to separate illusion and fantasy from reality and then to remember which one you are talking about

So you dont need to cling to certain opinions if you investigate the facts more and maybe even start to use them,

e.g Merc are scared that Ferrari are going to catch up between the old freeze date and anew one a couple months down the road - you can see which corner of the Mea Culpa triangle you are trying to force open?

[sagi58]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

[What's Burning?]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Why can't you accept that Ferrari isn't that great if they can't build an engine properly? Why do we have to completely change the rules just so they can do what they should have been doing in the first place? Why can't Ferrari be the bestest all the time you guys? Why can't Ferrari catch up next year? Why are you so downbeat about the greatest team in the history of the sport, that get 90 million a year just because they're so good, they're surely going to make huge gains next year aren't they? Why can't my team win all the time? It's getting more than a little tiresome, really.

[CookinFlat6]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Good try sagi, at least you are now actually taking on board reality and info and trying to understand it instead of firing off putdowns without learning anything new

Ok so we both agree that in the real world, its unlikely Merc are scared that ferrari will catch up in 2015 as a result of any relaxation of the freeze rules/date - ok?
So the next thing to look at is why? why do they want an extra couple months and to spend a lot more on a year they likely wont win if the whole year development was enough?
So that leads us (me) to the big chnage at the team and any timings that stick out - The IPO, Sergio said as soon as possible after the start of the year

Alonso told us he agreed with Luca to wait for a specific date in sep/October as that would be a big indicator of whether they were closing in on Merc. Alonso quit, and Sergio announced an IPO and MnM requested a few months extra before freezing his new engine.Now re,eber MnM said 6 months previously that his biggest priority was to get the chassis and engine teams working together after the rift caused by finger pointing and then the sacking of M... (dont remember his name - engine head)

So when we put those bits of reality together and make sure we dont add the fantasy or wishful thinking or passion - there you have it - Ferrari are completely fkd, their engine is worse than before because the engine/chassis team are still at loggerheads, and the company needs to be sold asap, because there will be no on track wins at all for 4 years and this is too big a risk for FCA rite now with a debt schedule that could worry even the Obama adminstration

And i wont be doing no Mea Culpaing as it is all based on the available facts and cant therefore be developed unlike a fantasy which is just a fantasy

So you have a choice, dont need to agree but you could think about some of these points,maybe even try get some real points yurself - or you can glaze over, ignore it, deliver a putdown add a whipsmiley, learn absolutely nothing and go back to 'Merc is scared Ferrari will catchup in 2015' and then absolve yourself at the Mea Culpa

[What's Burning?]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Good try sagi, at least you are now actually taking on board reality and info and trying to understand it instead of firing off putdowns without learning anything new

Ok so we both agree that in the real world, its unlikely Merc are scared that ferrari will catch up in 2015 as a result of any relaxation of the freeze rules/date - ok?
So the next thing to look at is why? why do they want an extra couple months and to spend a lot more on a year they likely wont win if the whole year development was enough?
So that leads us (me) to the big chnage at the team and any timings that stick out - The IPO, Sergio said as soon as possible after the start of the year

Alonso told us he agreed with Luca to wait for a specific date in sep/October as that would be a big indicator of whether they were closing in on Merc. Alonso quit, and Sergio announced an IPO and MnM requested a few months extra before freezing his new engine.Now re,eber MnM said 6 months previously that his biggest priority was to get the chassis and engine teams working together after the rift caused by finger pointing and then the sacking of M... (dont remember his name - engine head)

So when we put those bits of reality together and make sure we dont add the fantasy or wishful thinking or passion - there you have it - Ferrari are completely fkd, their engine is worse than before because the engine/chassis team are still at loggerheads, and the company needs to be sold asap, because there will be no on track wins at all for 4 years and this is too big a risk for FCA rite now with a debt schedule that could worry even the Obama adminstration

And i wont be doing no Mea Culpaing as it is all based on the available facts and cant therefore be developed unlike a fantasy which is just a fantasy

So you have a choice, dont need to agree but you could think about some of these points,maybe even try get some real points yurself - or you can glaze over, ignore it, deliver a putdown add a whipsmiley, learn absolutely nothing and go back to 'Merc is scared Ferrari will catchup in 2015' and then absolve yourself at the Mea Culpa

She'll take what's behind door number two.

[CookinFlat6]

or she will say 'whats the difference between the 2 options again?'

[overboost]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Rules that went to far is an understatement! They were flawed beyond hope and were never going to work.

The basic concept of trying to step freeze what are prototype engines from three different manufactures has too many variables to succeed. As we saw it resulted predictably in wide performance variations and then follow that with only 12 days of testing and you have races that are no more than extended reliability trials.

The variation in the 2014 engines created a two tier formula and perhaps three in the cases of Renault and Sauber.

The fallout unfortunately also included the loss of Caterham and Marussia who were not strong enough or resourceful enough to survive the process nor the additional $10 to 15+M additional cost.

The rules can't be changed fast enough and heads should be rolling at the fia imo.

[overboost]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Good try sagi, at least you are now actually taking on board reality and info and trying to understand it instead of firing off putdowns without learning anything new

Ok so we both agree that in the real world, its unlikely Merc are scared that ferrari will catch up in 2015 as a result of any relaxation of the freeze rules/date - ok?
So the next thing to look at is why? why do they want an extra couple months and to spend a lot more on a year they likely wont win if the whole year development was enough?
So that leads us (me) to the big chnage at the team and any timings that stick out - The IPO, Sergio said as soon as possible after the start of the year

Alonso told us he agreed with Luca to wait for a specific date in sep/October as that would be a big indicator of whether they were closing in on Merc. Alonso quit, and Sergio announced an IPO and MnM requested a few months extra before freezing his new engine.Now re,eber MnM said 6 months previously that his biggest priority was to get the chassis and engine teams working together after the rift caused by finger pointing and then the sacking of M... (dont remember his name - engine head)

So when we put those bits of reality together and make sure we dont add the fantasy or wishful thinking or passion - there you have it - Ferrari are completely fkd, their engine is worse than before because the engine/chassis team are still at loggerheads, and the company needs to be sold asap, because there will be no on track wins at all for 4 years and this is too big a risk for FCA rite now with a debt schedule that could worry even the Obama adminstration

And i wont be doing no Mea Culpaing as it is all based on the available facts and cant therefore be developed unlike a fantasy which is just a fantasy

So you have a choice, dont need to agree but you could think about some of these points,maybe even try get some real points yurself - or you can glaze over, ignore it, deliver a putdown add a whipsmiley, learn absolutely nothing and go back to 'Merc is scared Ferrari will catchup in 2015' and then absolve yourself at the Mea Culpa

Are you going to answer the question cooking? (bolded above for your reference!)

[What's Burning?]

I'll answer that one... because regardless of how much you whine about it, the rule isn't the problem.

[overboost]

You guys need to try to understand sports better - this unfreeze stuff for example - it's like stopping in the middle of a marathon to complain that you didn't have enough time to get fit and you want to change the rules to allow all unfit slobs to take a taxi and for the Kenyan chaps at the front to pay for the taxi

You lot are a joke

It would mean allowing all the marathoner's to have running shoes instead of just the favoured two. You know a fair competition.

[overboost]

They are free to compete Overboost. It goes like this............., build a car within the rules and put a driver in the car, now race it fast. The one that gets to the end first wins. Mercedes And their driver Lewis Hamilton did that, so they won. Simples.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. What if there was no engine freeze in 2014? is the scenario.

Thanks.

If there were no engine freeze the result would be the same. It took Mercedes two years to develop the engine. ferrari and Renault screwed up. What makes you think they'd suddenly get it all right in a few months if the freeze was lifted? And what of Mercedes? You think they'd just stand still?

Right, so why are we being denied this competition? I would have loved to see some real competition this season and maybe the results wouldn't have been the same - Red Bull especially with some extra power in the second half would have put up quite a fight imo. Remember back to 2009, there was a fightback in the second half as the other teams clawed back the Brawn advantage.

[What's Burning?]

They are free to compete Overboost. It goes like this............., build a car within the rules and put a driver in the car, now race it fast. The one that gets to the end first wins. Mercedes And their driver Lewis Hamilton did that, so they won. Simples.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. What if there was no engine freeze in 2014? is the scenario.

Thanks.

If there were no engine freeze the result would be the same. It took Mercedes two years to develop the engine. ferrari and Renault screwed up. What makes you think they'd suddenly get it all right in a few months if the freeze was lifted? And what of Mercedes? You think they'd just stand still?

Right, so why are we being denied this competition? I would have loved to see some real competition this season and maybe the results wouldn't have been the same - Red Bull especially with some extra power in the second half would have put up quite a fight imo. Remember back to 2009, there was a fightback in the second half as the other teams clawed back the Brawn advantage.

Bring the competition in 2015 and STFU. Because if you can't fix the engine knowing the mistakes made and having an entire year to fix it by changing up to 48% of engine components and having three separate winter tests to put thousands of kilometers on the engines to fine tune them, then you don't belong in the sport as an engine builder. Why are you even still talking about it, it's over it's past, Mercedes won, Hamilton won, it's done, let's talk about your team doing next year what they should have been doing over the last four years and stop the incessant whining.

[CookinFlat6]

Great!! Mercedes are not worried!! Fans are not worried!! Drivers are not worried!!
What's the problem with looking at rules that went too far, albeit with the best of
intentions, and saying, let's step back and make some changes?

Of course, the reality is that Mercedes do not want to give up their advantage, any
more than any other team would. So, let's stop the fallacy of a team who just wants
to follow the rules and just wants to help the little guys!!

Are you going to answer the question cooking? (bolded above for your reference!)

You and the others with this pain and frustration dont actually know what the question is so you wont know what the answer means

For example I am sure some of you dont actually know that 2015 is no longer relevant, and it was only relevant when Horner tried to coerce Merc ( ) into agreeing to change the agreement and relax the freeze BEFORE the deadline for changes to 2015. And now some of us are discussing the possibility of change for 2016 when a change can be brought about by consensus vote and not by unanimous vote.

So questions like this are irrelevant - "lets step back and make changes???" yes to 2016, and not as Sagi and overboost say "Merc dont want to give up their advantage, they are stiffling competition, they should at least sit down and hear reason for the sake of """fair competition"""

In this era of regulation stability (2014-2017 they all agreed to have 3 races, on an annual basis, between themselves as engine makers. They agreed to produce an engine with 3 updates for each of the races therefore controlling their costs. Merc won the 1st - 2014, Merc already appear to have won the second - 2015, as the other 2 have conceded defeat after a desperate bid to change the rules for the second year variant engine.

So now the only thing for the h8rz to pray for is that their sh!!ty teams somehow ace the next era starting in 2017 ( maybe by starting now instead of b!tching) or try very hard to be ready for 2016 - but dont think the engine regs are gonna change before 2017

The other thing you lot havent much thought about when you say 'what if there HAD BEEN no freeze in 2014, what then?' This time we can say even without hindsight and without reservation, Merc would still have won. And saved the losers a ton of money (Ferrari that is not Renault) We can see how hard it was for the 2 losers to even keep up during the season, they started with something fundamentally misjudged. Like turning up to a gunfight with a camera that doesnt work. Intra season development is one thing, but to rearrange the engine to be like mercs?? not during a season. Last year Renault and Ferrari were not even able to deliver full power for a big part of the year, this year all they had to do was improve what they had even more, and they havent

And the poor suckers still crying for something to be changed for 2015 and probably 2014 as well just have to remember the 3 yearly races - Merc has won 2014 and 2015 - start moaning about 2016 (2017 would be a push seeing as its a minor reg change)

And the thing is I think all Merc fans really feel for the 2 loser fans, In a best out of 3 races competition Merc have won 2 before the losers started developing full power in first race

[CookinFlat6]

You guys need to try to understand sports better - this unfreeze stuff for example - it's like stopping in the middle of a marathon to complain that you didn't have enough time to get fit and you want to change the rules to allow all unfit slobs to take a taxi and for the Kenyan chaps at the front to pay for the taxi

You lot are a joke

It would mean allowing all the marathoner's to have running shoes instead of just the favoured two. You know a fair competition.

The best Kenyans dont race in shoes

[overboost]

You guys need to try to understand sports better - this unfreeze stuff for example - it's like stopping in the middle of a marathon to complain that you didn't have enough time to get fit and you want to change the rules to allow all unfit slobs to take a taxi and for the Kenyan chaps at the front to pay for the taxi

You lot are a joke

It would mean allowing all the marathoner's to have running shoes instead of just the favoured two. You know a fair competition.

The best Kenyans dont race in shoes

For once cooking, maybe the only time, you are correct!