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[What's Burning?]

Just seen this on Facebook.

Another voice of reason amongst the sea of jerk reactions:

http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/2271/

That's a really good article from someone who seems to know what they're talking about.

Yup, I hope more people read that

I like that even in the comments of that link, there are people questioning the green flag.

[myownalias]

I know the green flag was "technically" after the incident; but maybe the green should have been waved at the next marshal post down the road. I know that drivers are not supposed to accelerate until after the flag, but how many see the flag and plant their foot? probably most, if the green flag was waved further down the road, maybe this wouldn't have happened?

[LRW]

I know the green flag was "technically" after the incident; but maybe the green should have been waved at the next marshal post down the road. I know that drivers are not supposed to accelerate until after the flag, but how many see the flag and plant their foot? probably most, if the green flag was waved further down the road, maybe this wouldn't have happened?

Maybe if the drivers followed the law of the flag, this wouldn't of happened?

It porobably wont go down well in this thread, BUT two waved yellows mean drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Was Jules really going at a speed appropriate to that?

[myownalias]

I know the green flag was "technically" after the incident; but maybe the green should have been waved at the next marshal post down the road. I know that drivers are not supposed to accelerate until after the flag, but how many see the flag and plant their foot? probably most, if the green flag was waved further down the road, maybe this wouldn't have happened?

Maybe if the drivers followed the law of the flag, this wouldn't of happened?

It porobably wont go down well in this thread, BUT two waved yellows mean drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Was Jules really going at a speed appropriate to that?

We can point fingers here, there and everywhere; but some common sense could have been applied by the race director; the green flag was waved literally feet way from the incident, would it not have made more sense to have the green flag waved further down the road?

[What's Burning?]

I know the green flag was "technically" after the incident; but maybe the green should have been waved at the next marshal post down the road. I know that drivers are not supposed to accelerate until after the flag, but how many see the flag and plant their foot? probably most, if the green flag was waved further down the road, maybe this wouldn't have happened?

Maybe if the drivers followed the law of the flag, this wouldn't of happened?

It porobably wont go down well in this thread, BUT two waved yellows mean drivers must slow down and be prepared to stop if necessary. Was Jules really going at a speed appropriate to that?

We can point fingers here, there and everywhere; but some common sense could have been applied by the race director; the green flag was waved literally feet way from the incident, would it not have made more sense to have the green flag waved further down the road?

You are not a race driver, therefore you're not thinking like one.

The Flag station is at the begining of the next section. That next section was cleared. On the track a section is a section, unmoving, unwavering, in other words it's fixed. To put a yellow flag there would mean that next sector would also be under yellow which it wasn't. The unusual thing here is the positioning.

But like it's already been stated, there are warning indicators on the steering wheel, there were warnings on the previous sectors flag stations and there is a team relaying information to you about what's happened on the track. The flag being waved could have been purple or pink and Jules would still have crashed just as spectacularly as he did.

[LH44]

It needed a bit of common sense there considering there was an accident right under the nose of the marshal post. Waving green flags made absolutely no sense even if it was at the start of the next sector. The position of Sutil's accident meant there was interface between two sectors and the stewards should've reacted. It may not have prevented the accident but could've possibly worsened things. The marshals simply couldn't erase the impression that they were poorly trained and didn't understand the danger of the situation that transpired.

Racing drivers have an inherrent tendency to avoid losing time by any means necessary and it is possible that Bianchi could've been going a bit too fast. That's something for the FIA to establish. We know the double waved yellow rule is policed by comparing current and previous sector times and establishing whether the driver lifted or not. There is no clear driving protocol as to what speed the driver should be doing and it's all covered under the subjective phrase of 'slow down and be prepared to stop'. This is why some drivers end up gaining more time than others.

[Hammer278]

Blaming the flag bearer doesn't even make sense when Bianchi would've lost control way before even seeing those green flags....He crashed in the double yellow area if I understand correctly, which means he was gone even before setting eyes on the green flags just after the truck.

[LH44]

I'm have not blamed the flag bearer for Bianchi losing control. The accident was clearly down to a combination of issues and this would be immediately obvious to anyone who saw the race and the video playback of the accident.

[Hammer278]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't responding to your post....just the gist of the past 2 pages.

The incident for me was 70% Charlie Whitings fault and 30% Bianchis fault.

More of Whitings fault because drivers can lose control of their car, its up to the race director to do his damn job properly.

[LH44]

Just seen this on Facebook.

Another voice of reason amongst the sea of jerk reactions:

http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/2271/

That's a really good article from someone who seems to know what they're talking about.

Yup, I hope more people read that

I’ve been saying since 2010 that flag discipline is deteriorating, and it’s deteriorating fast. And no one is making properly vigorous efforts to re-establish it.

At every F1 drivers briefing, the drivers hound Charlie for a number – “how fast can i go under yellows?” or “how fast under double yellows?”. Or even, “will I be penalised if I do 0.2 sec less than the last time thru that sector…”

I bet that the “appropriate” speed through T6-7 Sunday was probably something like 80-100 km/h – something like pit lane speed. Had drivers done that, the absurdity would have rapidly become apparent, and race control would have had little choice but to deploy the SC.

Before we start changing everything, wrapping JCB’s in tech pro, putting SC’s out every time someone’s in the armco, let’s correctly apply the spectacularly effective safety system already in place. And let’s start by making sure drivers actually respect the SPIRIT (“be prepared to stop”) and not the LETTER (“how many tenths down do I have to be to not get a stop-go penalty?”) of the safety regulations.

Decent article but I don't believe flag rules would ever be effective unless it's supported with a clear speed limit from even to event.

The level of speed carried under double waved yellows will always differ from driver to driver. You also have to consider state of tyres, brakes, track conditon ets. Here in the UK, it's something that works quite well on our motorways when variable speed limits are implemented via gantries when there are traffic issues like accidents, obstructions etc. So if normal road drivers are given this prescriptive speed limit, why not F1 drivers. The pitlane speed limit says it all. Imagine having no speed limit and waving double yellows on entry?

The driver will always try and gain in any scenario. I'm not saying they shouldn't be held accountable for not showing sufficient caution but they are fighting against an inherent trait which tells them they must avoid losing time regardless of the circumstances. So a miscalculation of how fast he should be driving coupled with an increasingly wet track, distractions, state of tyres etc and you have the scenario Bianchi ended up in.

[Jabberwocky]

The guy in that article talks a lot of sense.

Maybe the accident happened because Jules got caught i the no mans land of too slow for aero grip and too fast for mechanical grip

Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

[racechick]

It's a good point raised in the article ( and by you LH44) about drivers not respecting the spirit of the double waived yellows. But I don't feel we can lay the blame for this entirely at the feet of the drivers. They turn somersaults to gain extra tenths and by the nature of the beast, they are invincible, they will not have an accident. (Fact is they do and Maldonado broke a Marshall's legs by not lifting)
So how should double waived yellows be policed? The safe limit to travel under double waived yellows will be different for every corner/ straight of every track, and different again in different conditions. How can guys in a competitive environment be expected to lift if they suspect the next man won't? Harsher punishments? Too many grey areas.
I don't know the answer to this. But throwing a safety car for very incident I don't believe is the answer.

[Jabberwocky]

Maybe as LRw's mate suggested.
Double yellow. Activate pit limiter. So yes a driver might push as hard as he wants but how much would he gain at that speed. Even if it is not the pit limiter but a button that speed restricts to 10mph etc

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[racechick]

Yes, that sounds feasible!

[LH44]

Maybe as LRw's mate suggested.
Double yellow. Activate pit limiter. So yes a driver might push as hard as he wants but how much would he gain at that speed. Even if it is not the pit limiter but a button that speed restricts to 10mph etc

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That's my point. You need to define a clear speed limit under every double waved yellow otherwise the driver will always interpret the instruction to slow and be prepared to stop however they want.

On another note, during the start of the race when the SC led the pack, I was observing the behaviour of the drivers and how they were dealing with the treacherous conditions. Hamilton left Rosberg a significant gap but Bottas was right on his tail and and it was the same with Massa. These two were driving like idiots, possibly out of fear the Williams was relatively uncompetitive in the wet. I thought any misjudgement of their respective braking points and they are both getting wiped out, possibly taking Hamilton with them too. Fortunately they were both caught napping at the restart.