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[Roth]

It feels now that the extra speed Hamilton has is no longer an advantage because he finds a way of negating it. I'm starting to feel we've seen this before in Hamilton, this psychological weakness we pretend is misfortune.

Not a track Nico or Hamilton's been particularly successful on. Neither has the advantage. Here's hoping Hamilton doesn't shoot himself in the foot yet again. It's becoming the defining trait of the season so far.

It's gutting, I get that. But I realise Hamilton has a psychological weakeness that Nico's exploiting by proxy, and it's pointless denying it.

You are not one of those 'foot in mouth' experts, neither are you one of the 'I take it back, its all been a big mistake' types, and hopefully not one of the 'I will keep arguing by modifying my position until I am actually arguing against my own original premise' merchants

And like I said before I can see where you are coming from without the sweeping unsubstantiated statements e.g how do the original assertions above equate to the following ones?

The arguement isn't either he's nuts or he's fine. It's not necessarily a blanket weakness where his general racecraft has gone awry.

So either Nico's better at sandbagging or something happens in those final twelve minutes that has gotten into Hamilton. Or it's an unfortunate coincidence, just a blip.

I'm only trying to discuss a very specific area, but once again Hamilton's entire career has been thrown at me.

(You are the one who said this confirmed a pattern seen before with Hamilton - psychological weakness manifesting as bad luck i.e thru his career)

How does

'its the defining trait of the season so far'

relate to

He may have only been 700ths slower in Canada but he was faster overall so being behind is a bad thing, a mess up. It's got nothing to do with his proximity to Nico's time, but the implications of being behind. If it was Alonso dragging the Ferrari to within 700ths, now that would be a good thing, a great performance. For Hamilton it was a bad thing because he should have been infront - the resultant issues and retirement all stemmed from following Nico

You're kind of altering my original quote a bit at the end there, about defining traits. I said 'becoming'. Like winning was his defining trait, and if the poor quali continues, then it will become that, not has become. If you can't draw a line from that to what I say about Canada... you infer a lot from simple statements and then try and use it against me as if what you thought was what I said. Half of this thread is people replying to things I never said.

The jist of what I'm saying is the only time he's bottling it is in Q3. I've been pretty thorough in that. So, no, it's not like Button who had bad races and dips in form, it's not like Nico who was consistently just down on pure pace, it's not like Kimi, who has lost motivation, it's not like Vettel who isn't loving life without his back-end, it's not Alonso watching everyone ahead fight for the title, it's Hamilton who's starting to get the yips in Q3. That's his little thing.

And i don't bring up the rest of his career because you (half) mockingly covered that in another post and effortlessly explained it all away. There seems to be a point up to which you agree with me but refuse to put it down to a mental thing. So, what causes Hamilton to do this. Why are his attempts at sandbagging failing? Is it skill, is it psychological, something else? What's not gelling? What's getting in the way that wasn't pre-Monaco? You walk up to the door of an explanation but don't go though it.

[Hammer278]

Keep it up Roth and Cooks....it's great to see a quality banter, so few of those nowadays.

I find myself agreeing with both of you to an extent, although maybe this whole "Hamiltons off the boil after 4 straight wins" thing has just been a set of circumstances....Nico's dubious move in Monaco and Lewis just not up to mark in the two qualifyings after that. In Canada he lost out by thousandths (this isn't a question of pace, it's just Nico did great) and hasn't been able to dictate pace from Monaco. Is it so hard to accept he just needs to switch this around asap....by nailing in a great banker lap (faster than Nico) and seeing how Nico responds with his final attempt.

[CookinFlat6]

There seems to be a point up to which you agree with me but refuse to put it down to a mental thing. So, what causes Hamilton to do this. Why are his attempts at sandbagging failing? Is it skill, is it psychological, something else? What's not gelling? What's getting in the way that wasn't pre-Monaco? You walk up to the door of an explanation but don't go though it.

I have sailed right through the door

You say the fact he has lost 2 qualis confirms a psychological weakness. I say there are simple and practical explanations for this. Lewis told us before that Nico was reading his data to get closer on performance. After Monaco Lewis elected to still do his run last, obviously an attempt at sandbagging by not showing his true pace till too late for Nico to improve. Nico has done this before. This is where Nico is attempting to make up for the speed differential - by off track cleverness. So Lewis is trying to maintain the natural gap eroded by Mercs open data policy by being not just faster on track but also clever off it. It didnt work by a fraction first time, second tme he was unlucky and didnt get a time in at all. So he hasnt really become slower.

You then say that the fact Lewis is sandbagging at all confirms a psychological weakness. I say many drivers sacrifice grid position for race startegy, or setup the car for the race giving up an edge in quali. So Lewis is perfectly normal in trying out this conscious attempt to counter the advantage Nico is gaining from his data

You then say the fact that his sandbagging failed twice in a row confirms a previous pattern of pschological weakness and is becoming the defining trait of the season. I say he has been near perfect for 2 years, making less mistakes than his teammate, whipped his teammate when faster or slower, won 4 races in a row and maybe 2 instances of mistakes of the type his teamamte has made many more this year cannot be remotely said to be becoming a defining trait

So I agree that he has not won 2 races because he messed up q3 runs, I do not agree that this is a mental issue or a cracking up or that something has changed in his mind beyond trying hard to do what he bekleives he needs to do to beat a germanic finisher with finnish pace.
I agree as far as the facts and common sense dictate, but when we start going into the realms of 'I have no explanation or facts but I wont let that get in the way of declaring what hamiltons mindset is and despite lauda saying there is nothing wrong, I will insist on claiming he has a problem and that those who dont see it are apologists or romantics albeit armed with serious facts'

Its a bit like saying 'I am passionate about my team, so I dont need to be factually correct or knowledgeable, I can take any position whatsover to speak up for them and thats that'

[RyRy]

Great, another person who isn't quite getting it. This thread hasn't been about who is better. We know who's better.

It's boiled down to qualifying, and we've been having a discussion about why he might be making mistakes.

And because it's a discussion and this is a discussion forum it seemed as good a place as any to hold it. But maybe that's just me.

Australia Qualifying: Hamilton showed his class in the wet and even with a big twitch in the wet at the start of sector 2 he qualified first, beating Rosberg by 3 tenths qualifying third.
Australia Race: Hamilton's car had a spark plug problem causing his retirement and Rosberg had no challenger in the race so he just walked away with it.

Malaysia Qualifying: Another wet qualifying and Hamilton kept going faster and faster, Hamilton may of been beat in Q1, but he easily out performed Rosberg for Q2 and then their first run in Q3 he was over 7tenths faster than his teammate and didn't even need to finish his second run even though he was already 2 tenths up on his previous lap.
Malaysia Race: Hamilton just walked away with it, didn't even get challenged other than a minor challenge into turn 1 at the start. Rosberg wasn't challenged either finishing 17+ seconds behind Hamilton

Bahrain Qualifying: Q1 they didn't show their hand, Q2 Hamilton was 7tenths up on his first run and then his teamamte on his second run managed to go 2 tenths faster. Into Q3 and Rosberg set preliminary pole and followed by just under 3 tenths behind after a lockup into turn 1 which is one of the easiest places to lockup into.
Bahrain Race: Hamilton got the jump on Rosberg into turn 1 and then there was some awesome fighting for a very long time, they split strategies and Hamilton was comfortably ahead then but coming up to their last pits the safety car came out which gave Rosberg a MASSIVE advantage and Hamilton kept fighting and managed to keep Rosberg behind which was an impressive feat.

China Qualifying: Another wet qualifying with Hamilton absolutely smashing his teammate by nearly 2 seconds and was 6 tenths faster than Ricciardo who qualified second.
China Race: Hamilton walked away at the start, Rosberg had a bit of contact at the start losing a few places and had to fight his way back up to second place. Hamilton didn't even need to try

Spain Qualifying: Hamilton beat his teammate by 2 tenths with
Spain Race: Hamilton has never had form on this track and it's quite obvious from his previous races that it's not a track he likes/is good at however he still hung on to the win

Monaco Qualifying: Rosberg got the jump on Hamilton in the first run on Q3 and then on their second run Hamiltons run was cut short after Rosberg ran wide and caused yellow flags but even then Hamilton was only half a tenth behind which is tiny!
Monaco Race: On a track that's notoriously difficult to overtake on Hamilton followed for ages until he got some debris in his eye which instantly made him drop back and nearly come hird but again even then he was only 9 seconds behind.

Canada Qualifying: Hamilton was flying in Q1 and Q2 and then in Q3 Rosberg set the fastest lap in their first runs and with Hamilton only half a tenth behind Rosberg then on their second runs Hamilton was comfortably up on Rosberg into sector 1 but unfortunately in Sector 2 he locked up losing over 2 tenths but still even after that he was just under 1 tenth slower than Rosberg
Canada Race: Hamilton made a much better get away and Rosberg pushed him wide which made Hamilton lose a place, safety car came out and then after it went in Hamilton got DRS and streamed past Vettel, half way though the race both cars lost power. Hamilton overtook Rosberg in the pits and then locked up (still unsure if it was because of the breaks or not) which let Rosberg overtake, then instantly Hamilton used the slipstream to try and retake the place but at the end of the straight his brakes failed, Rosberg was quickly told how to protect his brakes a bit, Rosberg's car limped home being overtaken by Riccardio 3 laps to the end.

Austria Qualifying: Hamilton had an unsual lockup and the race engineer on the race day even admitted that there was nothing on the telemetry to show why he made the mistake, which meant he didn't get to set a time (I personally disagree with the fact they removed his first run, it should of only been the drivers who purposely drove wide, Hamilton's rear stepped out and he skidded over the line losing time not gaining time), Rosberg failed to get pole position too meaning Rosberg started P3 and Hamilton P9.
Austria Race: A fantastic start from Hamilton managing to get from 9th to 4th on the first lap, he kept close to Rosberg for a long time and jumped Massa during pits stops, and Rosberg also Jumped massa during the pits then both drivers overtook Bottas. Hamilton finished just under 2 seconds behind his team mate.

Hamilton: 3 minor errors, 4 poles, 4 wins, 2 car problems (both caused retirements at Australia and Canada), 1 driver problem (debris @ monaco)
Rosberg: 1 major error, 3 poles, 3 wins, 1 car problem (no retirement needed as it hit Hamilton first and they could avoid it)

I can't even comprehend how you think/feel Rosberg has a psychological edge over Hamilton and that hamilton is making "more mistakes", he had 3 lock ups... they're EASY to do and what about Rosbergs MASSIVE lockup and mess up at Monaco, what about his quite obvious qualli difference in Australia, Malaysia, China and Spain but yet with Monaco, Bahrain and Canada there was only a small difference...

[Roth]

There seems to be a point up to which you agree with me but refuse to put it down to a mental thing. So, what causes Hamilton to do this. Why are his attempts at sandbagging failing? Is it skill, is it psychological, something else? What's not gelling? What's getting in the way that wasn't pre-Monaco? You walk up to the door of an explanation but don't go though it.

I have sailed right through the door

You say the fact he has lost 2 qualis confirms a psychological weakness. I say there are simple and practical explanations for this. Lewis told us before that Nico was reading his data to get closer on performance. After Monaco Lewis elected to still do his run last, obviously an attempt at sandbagging by not showing his true pace till too late for Nico to improve. Nico has done this before. This is where Nico is attempting to make up for the speed differential - by off track cleverness. So Lewis is trying to maintain the natural gap eroded by Mercs open data policy by being not just faster on track but also clever off it. It didnt work by a fraction first time, second tme he was unlucky and didnt get a time in at all. So he hasnt really become slower.

You then say that the fact Lewis is sandbagging at all confirms a psychological weakness. I say many drivers sacrifice grid position for race startegy, or setup the car for the race giving up an edge in quali. So Lewis is perfectly normal in trying out this conscious attempt to counter the advantage Nico is gaining from his data

You then say the fact that his sandbagging failed twice in a row confirms a previous pattern of pschological weakness and is becoming the defining trait of the season. I say he has been near perfect for 2 years, making less mistakes than his teammate, whipped his teammate when faster or slower, won 4 races in a row and maybe 2 instances of mistakes of the type his teamamte has made many more this year cannot be remotely said to be becoming a defining trait

So I agree that he has not won 2 races because he messed up q3 runs, I do not agree that this is a mental issue or a cracking up or that something has changed in his mind beyond trying hard to do what he bekleives he needs to do to beat a germanic finisher with finnish pace.
I agree as far as the facts and common sense dictate, but when we start going into the realms of 'I have no explanation or facts but I wont let that get in the way of declaring what hamiltons mindset is and despite lauda saying there is nothing wrong, I will insist on claiming he has a problem and that those who dont see it are apologists or romantics albeit armed with serious facts'

Its a bit like saying 'I am passionate about my team, so I dont need to be factually correct or knowledgeable, I can take any position whatsover to speak up for them and thats that'

I think he's nuts, you think he's crafty. That's all I wanted. Thank you.

[sagi58]

I have to say, you Mercedes fans sure do know how to have fun!!

Keep up the great debate!!

[Roth]

Great, another person who isn't quite getting it. This thread hasn't been about who is better. We know who's better.

It's boiled down to qualifying, and we've been having a discussion about why he might be making mistakes.

And because it's a discussion and this is a discussion forum it seemed as good a place as any to hold it. But maybe that's just me.

Australia Qualifying: Hamilton showed his class in the wet and even with a big twitch in the wet at the start of sector 2 he qualified first, beating Rosberg by 3 tenths qualifying third.
Australia Race: Hamilton's car had a spark plug problem causing his retirement and Rosberg had no challenger in the race so he just walked away with it.

Malaysia Qualifying: Another wet qualifying and Hamilton kept going faster and faster, Hamilton may of been beat in Q1, but he easily out performed Rosberg for Q2 and then their first run in Q3 he was over 7tenths faster than his teammate and didn't even need to finish his second run even though he was already 2 tenths up on his previous lap.
Malaysia Race: Hamilton just walked away with it, didn't even get challenged other than a minor challenge into turn 1 at the start. Rosberg wasn't challenged either finishing 17+ seconds behind Hamilton

Bahrain Qualifying: Q1 they didn't show their hand, Q2 Hamilton was 7tenths up on his first run and then his teamamte on his second run managed to go 2 tenths faster. Into Q3 and Rosberg set preliminary pole and followed by just under 3 tenths behind after a lockup into turn 1 which is one of the easiest places to lockup into.
Bahrain Race: Hamilton got the jump on Rosberg into turn 1 and then there was some awesome fighting for a very long time, they split strategies and Hamilton was comfortably ahead then but coming up to their last pits the safety car came out which gave Rosberg a MASSIVE advantage and Hamilton kept fighting and managed to keep Rosberg behind which was an impressive feat.

China Qualifying: Another wet qualifying with Hamilton absolutely smashing his teammate by nearly 2 seconds and was 6 tenths faster than Ricciardo who qualified second.
China Race: Hamilton walked away at the start, Rosberg had a bit of contact at the start losing a few places and had to fight his way back up to second place. Hamilton didn't even need to try

Spain Qualifying: Hamilton beat his teammate by 2 tenths with
Spain Race: Hamilton has never had form on this track and it's quite obvious from his previous races that it's not a track he likes/is good at however he still hung on to the win

Monaco Qualifying: Rosberg got the jump on Hamilton in the first run on Q3 and then on their second run Hamiltons run was cut short after Rosberg ran wide and caused yellow flags but even then Hamilton was only half a tenth behind which is tiny!
Monaco Race: On a track that's notoriously difficult to overtake on Hamilton followed for ages until he got some debris in his eye which instantly made him drop back and nearly come hird but again even then he was only 9 seconds behind.

Canada Qualifying: Hamilton was flying in Q1 and Q2 and then in Q3 Rosberg set the fastest lap in their first runs and with Hamilton only half a tenth behind Rosberg then on their second runs Hamilton was comfortably up on Rosberg into sector 1 but unfortunately in Sector 2 he locked up losing over 2 tenths but still even after that he was just under 1 tenth slower than Rosberg
Canada Race: Hamilton made a much better get away and Rosberg pushed him wide which made Hamilton lose a place, safety car came out and then after it went in Hamilton got DRS and streamed past Vettel, half way though the race both cars lost power. Hamilton overtook Rosberg in the pits and then locked up (still unsure if it was because of the breaks or not) which let Rosberg overtake, then instantly Hamilton used the slipstream to try and retake the place but at the end of the straight his brakes failed, Rosberg was quickly told how to protect his brakes a bit, Rosberg's car limped home being overtaken by Riccardio 3 laps to the end.

Austria Qualifying: Hamilton had an unsual lockup and the race engineer on the race day even admitted that there was nothing on the telemetry to show why he made the mistake, which meant he didn't get to set a time (I personally disagree with the fact they removed his first run, it should of only been the drivers who purposely drove wide, Hamilton's rear stepped out and he skidded over the line losing time not gaining time), Rosberg failed to get pole position too meaning Rosberg started P3 and Hamilton P9.
Austria Race: A fantastic start from Hamilton managing to get from 9th to 4th on the first lap, he kept close to Rosberg for a long time and jumped Massa during pits stops, and Rosberg also Jumped massa during the pits then both drivers overtook Bottas. Hamilton finished just under 2 seconds behind his team mate.

Hamilton: 3 minor errors, 4 poles, 4 wins, 2 car problems (both caused retirements at Australia and Canada), 1 driver problem (debris @ monaco)
Rosberg: 1 major error, 3 poles, 3 wins, 1 car problem (no retirement needed as it hit Hamilton first and they could avoid it)

I can't even comprehend how you think/feel Rosberg has a psychological edge over Hamilton and that hamilton is making "more mistakes", he had 3 lock ups... they're EASY to do and what about Rosbergs MASSIVE lockup and mess up at Monaco, what about his quite obvious qualli difference in Australia, Malaysia, China and Spain but yet with Monaco, Bahrain and Canada there was only a small difference...

I appreciate all the effort you've gone to there, I really do, and I understand my point is gauling for everyone here, but certainly after my first couple of posts I've never seen this as a Hamilton/Rosberg battle - he did this, he did that - that's for another time where we can discuss where they stand in the table, and where the points were won and lost. This is more how did Hamilton get to losing so many points off his own back after such a great start, and that the small errors can compound into bigger things. Like when rain leaks into your bedroom you don't just look straight up to find the hole in the roof, because that's probably not where the water's getting in. And I felt like we'd been down this road before with the man. I say to myself, god, i know where this might be headed, and I don't like it. I'm trying to pre-empt the Hamilton backlash if it continues and spot a trend.

This is a drastic example, but you know when some kid in America shoots up a school and gun control debate becomes central, and you think, well, why does it take a massacre to start worrying about gun control. It's like that, except with multi millionaires zooming around a track.

Having said that, I wonder why you think Rosberg can't have gained mental traction, because I know if I was expected to lose to my teammate and despite being consistently slower than him was leading the championship by a very healthy margin, I'd be cock-a-hoop. Not to say it couldn't go tits up in Britain for the man, and it come to a grinding halt, but at the moment, yeah, he has the points in the bag and should feel very happy with that.

[racechick]

He should indeed feel chicken a hoop, and will undoubtably be feeling very positive , whereas before Monaco he will likely have been feeling the opposite, but the reason for that is not because Lewis is mentally fragile, like many have pointed out, its tiny little things and a lot of luck going Rosberg's way.

[Roth]

I was replying particularly to what RyRy said, so it wasn't me pushing my annoying agenda again, just a general 'it's not weird the dude should be in a good frame of mind being on a roll' kind of thing.

[racechick]

LOL. It's not an annoying agenda. It's an enjoyable debate. I can understand where you're coming from, I just don't agree.

[Roth]

Yeah, I get that a lot.

[cheekybru]

Great Discussion guys Again, i see where Roth is coming from, but do not think its justified, Like Cookin and RC have explained beautifully Rosberg has made more errors, and had more luck, Hamilton your looking at one mistake, last race, which I think he should have won anyway (With normal potstops) even starting 9th.

Im so revved up for Silverstone where are you sitting to watch the race RC?

[racechick]

I'm sitting right at the top of village A. very excited now. I've just planned the food menus and done a trial run car pack. Three people and loads of stuff in a small car.

[cheekybru]

Ah wel be in copse B Gonna try camp in Windmill at your suggestion, We should have a Forum meet

[LewEngBridewell]

Ah wel be in copse B Gonna try camp in Windmill at your suggestion, We should have a Forum meet

Copse is a great place! I was there (albeit in General Admission) a few years back, and saw some great on-track dicing, most notably between Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso.