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[FRAFPDD]

Don't blame the E.U, the human rights act tends not to say what people think or claim it says it does. It's a pretty damn reasonable piece of legislation.

Total freedom is anarchy, but I don't think anyone mentioned total freedom.

I don't see how oppressive governments help mankind progress, the rule of law is clearly necessary but stifling freedom just leads to a lot of abuse, and stifles a lot of stuff.

You say they have their citizens under control, their hardly safe havens. Crimes and oppression by the state can be just as bad as crimes by mobs.

Acutally your right in that respect, its not solely the EU, its World Legislation in general...

Im mentioning total freedom Vaptin becaues thats what every western country moves towards, all of them, think back a hundred years, hung for being homosexual, women cant vote, war letters/diaries censored.

Now everyone is allowed an opinion, as long as that opinion sings the doctrinal tune of liberalism, you cant say jack s*it about anything to do with current affair issues froma certain point of view because your racist, and those with power, the media, will also say the same.

You have kids assaulting teahchers, and when teachers handle them out the classroom for the safety of all, the teacher gets a criminal record, loses his job, loses thousands in court cases and the pupil is let back into school for being the victim. This is all a results of modern society, these arent isolated incidents.

Why is it western teens that get pregant and have kids at about 8, im talking America France and Britain, why> cause they are THE three most liberal nations in the world entire, and they let everyone do what they want. Humans cant control themselves. Everyone disses religion as ancient folklore but those who stick by it nowadays stick out like a sore thumb because they are the only ones with decent morals. Even us on this forum, wwe all have our skeletons we wont discuss but we have traits as a result of stupid liberal ideas.

Ill ask you now whether you want to continue this, cause i cant see my fingers coping with the amount of words i could write on this subject, and unfortunately subjects like these need long words said.

Its really not that hard to fathom, the evidence is for all to see. You let people do more and more what they want, the worse society becomes.

Countries like Russia China and so on only have these mobs and crime syndicates because of the remnants of strict communism that was corrupt, but even they get things done.

[racechick]

. Everyone disses religion as ancient folklore but those who stick by it nowadays stick out like a sore thumb because they are the only ones with decent morals.

Cant accept that sentence. You dont need to be religious to have a moral outlook on life, a conscience, a consideration for others and an acceptance of others who are different.
Yes a lot of religious people have those attributes, so do a lot of athiests.

Bringing up children with no moral guidance, no responsibilty, no respect, no tolerance and an attitude that life owes them is the cause. Religious people are not exempt from falling short in these areas.

[What's Burning?]

. Everyone disses religion as ancient folklore but those who stick by it nowadays stick out like a sore thumb because they are the only ones with decent morals.

Cant accept that sentence. You dont need to be religious to have a moral outlook on life, a conscience, a consideration for others and an acceptance of others who are different.
Yes a lot of religious people have those attributes, so do a lot of athiests.

Bringing up children with no moral guidance, no responsibilty, no respect, no tolerance and an attitude that life owes them is the cause. Religious people are not exempt from falling short in these areas.

Once you live in a social group, shared and equal moral standards is the best way to assure the survival of that group and allow it to thrive. Different social groups developed different moral standards, but the essential don't kill don't steal don't abuse those in your social group are general moral values that evolved along with humanity probably long before organized religion.

[What's Burning?]

Countries like Russia China and so on only have these mobs and crime syndicates because of the remnants of strict communism that was corrupt, but even they get things done.

You sound like someone that's never lived in a communist country and had to give up their freedom in order to guarantee their social well being. Believe me, based on your character, you'd be one of the first ones taken away.

Personally I'd be much more afraid of a totalitarian government than a raucous mob.

[andrew]

. Everyone disses religion as ancient folklore but those who stick by it nowadays stick out like a sore thumb because they are the only ones with decent morals.

Cant accept that sentence. You dont need to be religious to have a moral outlook on life, a conscience, a consideration for others and an acceptance of others who are different.
Yes a lot of religious people have those attributes, so do a lot of athiests.

Bringing up children with no moral guidance, no responsibilty, no respect, no tolerance and an attitude that life owes them is the cause. Religious people are not exempt from falling short in these areas.

I don't agree at all FRAFPDD. It's all about how someone is brought up. I don't belive in God nor do I see any reason to do so as I see no evidence of such a being existing.

Religious people are often some of the worst. I'll give you 3 examples:

1. My Dad's friend of about 50 years daughter died suddenly in circumstances that I will not go into about 5 years ago whilst on holiday in Spain. When my Dad's friend and his wife got back from Spain with their daughter's body my folks went and visited whilst I was at work. Whilst they were there, a couple from their church paid a visit (my Dad's friend is an elder in their local kirk). At one point my Mum was alone in the living room with the 2 visitors, at which point the woman leaned forward and asked quietly "So what do you think really happened?"

2. A couple years ago, one of my Dad's cousin's son-in-law died from meningitis leaving a wife and a 4 year old daughter. After the service the minister apparently said to the wife "don't worry, he's in abetter place now".

Both of these faux pas were made by so called religious people showing a massive lack of morals. These are things that a decent person would never think of asking or saying as they know that they would be speaking out of place. Now for number 3 (it's a good 'un):

3. George Bush! Look at all the things this idiot has done in God's name. 'Nuff said.

Then you get all those folk who come knocking on you door trying to convert you to their way of thinking and they don't like being told to bugger orf. Next time this lot come to my door, I'm telling them I am a Jedi!

If it was upto me, I would ban all religion as it causes nothing but trouble and I am convinced that it is the route of all evil as stupid people carry out terrible atrocities in the name of their particular religion and then ever stupider people who can't tell the difference between a lone whack job and a body of peaceful followers of the same faith, retaliate by killing hunderds of innocent people.

[smokin]

Africa to send troops, food parcels to UK as riots spread ...
ETHIOPIA. The African Union today adopted a unilateral resolution to deploy army troops and care packages to England as looting and violence spread from London to other major cities. Spokesperson Charity Khumalo said "We can no longer stand by while these savages tear themselves apart."
The AU, meeting today in an emergency session to discuss the ongoing rioting in the UK, has declared that they will do "everything in their power to help bring civilisation to England".


"It's just so sad, you know?" said Khumalo, speaking from the organisation's HQ in Addis Ababa. "Sitting here and watching them on TV while their society implodes. We cannot in good conscience remain idle and let it happen."

The AU has announced a range of initiatives that Africans can get involved with to help alleviate the misery of the English.

"For instance, we have launched an 'Adopt an English child' programme," Khumalo explained, showing journalists brochures featuring the faces of English kids. "If you donate a mere R50 a month, you can see to it that sweet little Johnny from Peckham receives a basic education, a pack of condoms and a pair of pimpin' Nikes."
Khumalo also said that the AU would be parachuting in dentists along with army troops as part of a 'Feel better about yourselves, Brits!' initiative.

"You can understand why they're turning on each other," the spokesperson told journalists. "You look in the mirror and you see teeth untouched by modern dentistry. It's heartbreaking enough to make anyone put a brick through a Starbucks."

The organisation also plans to air-drop care packages on major UK cities.


'"Vegetables, mainly," Khumalo confirmed. "We're sending them vegetables and toothpaste."
The AU's flagship event, however, will be a star-studded rock concert to be held in Johannesburg, with all proceeds going towards the establishment of mobile libraries around the UK. Artists ranging from Mafikizolo to Steve Hofmeyr have pledged to perform at the show.

"As a humanitarian, it's the least I can do," Hofmeyr said yesterday. "I look at those photos of the adorable little beasts knifing each other in fights over looted X-Boxes and I want to hug them and give them a nice hot cup of Milo."

Meanwhile, the week's events has seen terrified South Africans in London and Manchester packing their bags for home.

" Like this country is going to the dogs, dude," said Werner du Preez, a gap-year student from Johannesburg. "I've been offered a nice little two-bed place in Hillbrow where I can feel safe again " ...... ! !

["Borrowed" from http://peter-williams-art.blogspot.com/]

[What's Burning?]

Can't another royal marry or something?

[andrew]

Can't another royal marry or something?

There not enough public money left for anymore royal inbreeding until 2015.

[FRAFPDD]

. Everyone disses religion as ancient folklore but those who stick by it nowadays stick out like a sore thumb because they are the only ones with decent morals.

Cant accept that sentence. You dont need to be religious to have a moral outlook on life, a conscience, a consideration for others and an acceptance of others who are different.
Yes a lot of religious people have those attributes, so do a lot of athiests.

Bringing up children with no moral guidance, no responsibilty, no respect, no tolerance and an attitude that life owes them is the cause. Religious people are not exempt from falling short in these areas.

The only people i know, i mean literally, that have the morals id expect of any decent human, are my familys, whos ancestory is strict irish catholic, and my italian friends, who are passive catholic. Even my friends, theyre spoilt shytes, and they dont have much respect for all theyre given, arguing with their parents after all i see them give them, wheras i wouldnt dare with mine and they brought us up with no spoilt attitudes and such.

Oh and Dot Cotton from eastenders, the only one that isnt a total f*ckup !

Religious people arent exempt but i didnt say they were? Nor suggest it.
They just have a much better capacity for it, or rather they are 5 times more likely then a modern nuclear unreligious family to not be total wronguns.

All im saying is the lack of a moral code that for thousands of years came from religion, is a major cause to why liberal nations like UK US France have such social problems, from boozing teens, to louts, to benefit fraud culture, to ultra high divorce rates. It doesnt just happen by coincidence, theres reasons for it.

[FRAFPDD]

Countries like Russia China and so on only have these mobs and crime syndicates because of the remnants of strict communism that was corrupt, but even they get things done.

You sound like someone that's never lived in a communist country and had to give up their freedom in order to guarantee their social well being. Believe me, based on your character, you'd be one of the first ones taken away.

Personally I'd be much more afraid of a totalitarian government than a raucous mob.

Total strawman argument, if i was living in a communist country, it would firstly depend entirely on what communist country we're talking about, china si communist, and allowing contextly a few isolated incidents you are allowed opinions, just not very severe ones, then trouble starts.

Secondly, id know from my toddler years from my parents to keep my mouth shut if i wanted to stay out of trouble, i wouldnt go marching in there either as an immigrant with my mouth onoverdrive knowing what i know.

The assumption that im advocating communist ideology is wrong as a final point, they just knew how to keep a lid on social misconduct.

[LewEngBridewell]

I'm just going to offer my two penny's worth on two points here.

Firstly, religion is not a cause of how good or bad people are, or how polite and good with their morals they are and stuff. I was brought up in a moderate Christian environment. My father was atheist and my mother was Christian. I declared myself Christian as a boy, but now I'm an atheist. All I have seen from religion, is that it is one of the biggest and most terrible causes of conflict in the world. Far too many people have died in the name of religion, and I don't agree with any of that bollocks. I have many friends who are religious and many who aren't. They're all good people with their own faults, but you wouldn't be able to tell who was and who wasn't religious just based on their attitude, demeanour or way of life. Finally, the most extreme religious people, in my opinion, blind themselves to real life and reality, as do extreme right-wing folk.

Secondly, NOTHING changes. Not regarding people anyway. Fashion changes, trends change, building-designs change, cars change, sport changes, technology changes. But that's all on the surface. People themselves don't change. People have always and will always commit crime, be selfish, be rude as its part of our nature. I cannot STAND folk who say "back in my day everyone was nice" or "things aren't like they used to be" or "crime is far worse these days". BOLLOCKS. That's just the result of sticking on rose-tinted specs and looking back misty eyes to a heavily airbrushed past-life we were meant to have lived. One of the main causes of crime is poverty and anger at society. If people are willing to say to me that crime has increased and the youth is corrupt and people are so much worse, then if I could, I would transport them back to Victorian times. Why? Because murder was rife, wife-beating was normal, little kids had nothing better to do than vandalise and pick-pocket, people were terribly rude, things were unfair and crime wrought its way through the town and cities like an awful plague. Prisons were so overcrowded due to loads and loads of CRIME.

People who tell me they think society is worse than ever need to trip back maybe 100 / 200 years. They wouldn't last two minutes.

[andrew]

It's the idiots that take the religion too far, like George Bush, that are the problem as they use it as very flimsy reasoning for indiscriminant killing of hundreds of innocent people and all for no good reason in countries where there is lots of lovely oil. Wait a minute.........

[FRAFPDD]

I don't agree at all FRAFPDD. It's all about how someone is brought up. I don't belive in God nor do I see any reason to do so as I see no evidence of such a being existing.

Yes it is all about how someones is brought up, im saying the ones most likely to the right style are religious, only most likely as its in their doctrine. You also find a hell of a lot of religious people especially christians that dont believe god is a single entity, or that god exists in human form.

Religious people are often some of the worst. I'll give you 3 examples:

Undeniably, but id rather have 5 staunchly religious nutjobs, and 500 peace abiding ones, then a general wave of moraless toads.

3. George Bush! Look at all the things this idiot has done in God's name. 'Nuff said.

Look at all the good John F kennedy did, in. gods. name. There hasnt been a president EVER that isnt religious, they wont allow it. Look at all the good the abolitionist Abraham Lincoln did, in. gods. name. Look at all the good Harry Truman did for the Allies (the gnerally considered good side in the war) in. gods. name.

Then you get all those folk who come knocking on you door trying to convert you to their way of thinking and they don't like being told to bugger orf. Next time this lot come to my door, I'm telling them I am a Jedi!

Is this really how much youd scrape the barrel of your argument can to make a point, whatever that point is mind ive lost it. They dont try to convert you, they ask if your interested, you say no, and guess what, most non religious people tell them to f*ck off, do one, or get the f*ck away from them to which they politely accept, now who there were the moraless ones andrew?

If it was upto me, I would ban all religion as it causes nothing but trouble and I am convinced that it is the route of all evil as stupid people carry out terrible atrocities in the name of their particular religion and then ever stupider people who can't tell the difference between a lone whack job and a body of peaceful followers of the same faith, retaliate by killing hunderds of innocent people.

WW1- Caused by nationalistic land grabbing of Germans

WW2- caused by nationalistic land grabbing of germans

Cold War- Caused by differing POLITICAL ideologies

Vietnam War- caused by differing POLITICAL ideologies

Youd have to back to mid 1600's to find wars nowhere near big as these fought over religion.

Thats over half a billion lives lost, and not one to do with religion.

[What's Burning?]

Religious people arent exempt but i didnt say they were? Nor suggest it.
They just have a much better capacity for it, or rather they are 5 times more likely then a modern nuclear unreligious family to not be total wronguns.

Total BS, and I'd challenge you to show statistical scientific data that substantiates your claim.

All im saying is the lack of a moral code that for thousands of years came from religion, is a major cause to why liberal nations like UK US France have such social problems, from boozing teens, to louts, to benefit fraud culture, to ultra high divorce rates. It doesnt just happen by coincidence, theres reasons for it.

You mean the thousands of years of moral highly religious code that went on enslaving peoples from all over the world, stealing their lands and their resources and even sanctioned genocide?

[FRAFPDD]

Religious people arent exempt but i didnt say they were? Nor suggest it.
They just have a much better capacity for it, or rather they are 5 times more likely then a modern nuclear unreligious family to not be total wronguns.

Total BS, and I'd challenge you to show statistical scientific data that substantiates your claim.

All im saying is the lack of a moral code that for thousands of years came from religion, is a major cause to why liberal nations like UK US France have such social problems, from boozing teens, to louts, to benefit fraud culture, to ultra high divorce rates. It doesnt just happen by coincidence, theres reasons for it.

You mean the thousands of years of moral highly religious code that went on enslaving peoples from all over the world, stealing their lands and their resources and even sanctioned genocide?

That wasnt an actual statistic, it was just trying to make a statement, and it cant be proved. Does that make you right? Well it cant be proved theres as much water in the ocean as we're told, it cant be. Thats one of many examples of things you believe that cant physically be proven, and im sure if i had as much heart in this topic as you do id search google for statistics.



Your second part, so what answer do you have to the fact theres no slavery, no land stealing, no sanctioned genocide in the modern world, and yet over half of it is still religious?

Busted.

The things you mentioned are by products of an ever evolving society, that were backwards because they hadnt the experience to go forward. Your suggestion that religion is tied in with all of them let alone responsible is a bit....silly.

Heres another intersting point, you know how i mentioned china and all that, well have you ever heard of mass murder, or super fanatical homicide, on behalf of Buddhism, or Sikhism, and what countries are they predominantly in? Countries where the modern disgraceful liberal values arent.


I dont care much for any religion only it defiitely keeps most people that follow it on a morally righteous path. Rather then soft touch societies that let everyone do what they want.