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[What's Burning?]

...The engine freeze prevents any of the competition from fighting back through the season so fans need not to attend when the outcome is already determined. For F1 to thrive again the engine freeze needs to be adjusted to allow development.

Personally I am against rules which prevent innovation and competition and more and more it is apparent that Mercedes is creating this very thing in F1. Their values are tuned to just selling Mercs not to racing.

It would seem that those of us who don't agree with what's currently happening
in F1 are wrong; however, if we start to support the "right" driver, we'll see the light!

No it wouldn't seem that way at all, or perhaps it would seem that way only to a bitter person that habitually and blindly follows what they're told even though year after year sees no proof of and on the contrary sees more and more evidence in support of their views being wrong and still deny it.

Climate, Religion, F1 the subject changes but the ignorance is a constant.

[sagi58]

Reading that cookie, and taking what's said in this video, makes me think there could be something/someone else behind all this.

[youtube]BgrbdKQ3zzs[/youtube]

Bernie behind the teams to force the switch back to V8?

Thanks for that video, stone!
I find myself agreeing with you!
There is definitely something afoot!

[CookinFlat6]

It's not about agreeing with Mercs position, it's about some stated facts. Facts such as Ferrari don't need an unfreeze to catch up, they just need to do a better job. But let's ignore the facts and make our claims based on self admitted 'little knowledge'
While we are at it why do Feerari have to continue as a manufacturer if they can't make competitive engines within the rules? Just one valid reason will do. BMW, Toyota, Cosworth stopped, tell us why Ferrari continue if it's not working out for them?
Or just change the subject

You might want to re-read that without the rose-tinted glasses you're wearing as a Hamilton fan.
Sure, he is basically guaranteed the title, at this point. Sure, he will probably repeat that next
year, if Mercedes are successful in ruining competition in F1.

Just remember that just as you've declared there are asterisks beside the names of some WDC,
there are a lot of fans in F1 who will be placing one beside each title Mercedes and their drivers
win because of this.

What's Hamilton gotta do with this? I suspected you would ignore the question and change the subject but you take the argumentum ad ignoratia to a new level. Ms gas an asteroid beside 5 if his 7 titles, Seb has 4 out of 4, Lewis would have 1 out of 2 according to this argumentum a ignoratia

Why don't Ferrari quit if they can't compete within the rules?

This has a lot to do with Hamilton!! IF Hamilton were still at McLaren, you'd not be singing the praises of Mercedes.
Rather, you'd be on this side of the fence arguing that there Mercedes was stifling competition.

And, you really should stop insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you, it's against forum rules, remember?

Can you cut and paste the insult aimed at another member please, because its also against the rules to launch personal attacks by lying about the conduct of others

the argumentum ad ignorantium is a well established member of logical fallacies found in debate. It doesnt mean the user is ignorant, it means they are using an argument based on incomplete information, which you yourself have established several times when you said that you were unaware of the available information and historical precedents as you were new to F1 and proud to be new and not as knowledgeable as the others you argue with

Put it this way sagi, each time you concluded a discussion with 'aww, mea culpa' - you concluded argumentum ad ignorantium

So maybe try and cut down on the ad hominem as well

By the way the other main fallacies in that family mentioned above are the argumentum ad logicam (commonly called the strawman) and argumentum ad misericordiam (commonly known as 'poor me') and argumentum ad antiquitatem (appeal to tradition or status quo) and finally argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to mods) ALL of which you use regularly as it suits you

[What's Burning?]

Please, let's get this thread back to arguing the merits of this year's engine and it's performance, benefits and relevance as it relates to other power plants in the history of the sport. Shall we?

[sagi58]

I do think that Merc is a valuable player in F1 and should be encouraged to stay however it does appear that they have lost their way when they threaten to veto competition.

They are not vetoing anything, they are refusing to change the rules designed to protect the financial spending for all teams, especially the weak ones who spend the most, like Ferrari...

...please research some more so you can express your thoughts with credibility as you appear to have something to add to a debate, just never seems to make any sense

You might like to do a little research of your own, as a quick look-see in a dictionary will result in something along these lines:

veto
noun: the power to prevent legislation or action proposed by others; prohibition...
verb: to prohibit, ban, or forbid...

p.s. Rules can be changed, rules can be amended, rules can be tweaked.
At the moment, the rule for competion in F1 is being broken!

[What's Burning?]

Ferrari and Red Bull have had an entire year to analyze their existing engines, their strengths and weaknesses. They have the ability to change 48% of their existing engine. There is no excuse for not being able to leapfrog Mercedes next year, yes?

[Jabberwocky]

I would like to see a break down of the point system. If you say 48% to me I would either cut the engine almost in half or think. Fine I will not touch the block and I can mess with everything else.

[What's Burning?]

The entire breakdown is listed in this thread, on my iPad at the moment. The idea was that each subsequent year you could change a lower percentage of the components.

So in this first year, there are 92% of the engine components identified as able to be changed. Teams can change up to 48% of those. In 2015 I think it's an additional 32% and then in 2016 it was 16% ending in 2017 when in theorie you would have been able to change the entire engine.

[What's Burning?]

Good read on the 2014 power units over on ESPNF1. The excerpt below has some pretty interesting details, the way it reads, they expect that perhaps 50% of performance gained during the season will come from optimizing software to optimally intersect with an engine that may not be on the grid in Melbourne.

ESPNF1Unlocking performance
Although there was a development freeze on the old V8s, manufacturers were still tinkering with software last season to get as much performance as possible from the engines. Despite all the new hardware for 2014, once again it will be the software engineers pushing the boundaries all season long.

Taffin: "The software is going to be the key factor for performance. You could run the engines next year in a very simple way but it's not going to be efficient. The software will again be key and we will need these things to work, because if they are not working to plan then when you get in the race it will be hurting lap time quite a lot. The hardware is frozen by March 1 when we give the specification to the FIA and the software will be the one thing where we can keep developing into the season. That is where we are going to get the performance out of it, because we have a certain type of hardware that we will anticipate we will be running at one point, but maybe when we get to Melbourne we will not be right there. Then you will see performance developing through the season and maybe 50% will be coming from the way we manage this."

Also interesting that Ferrari is the only manufacturer to not yet release an official image of their power unit. Mercedes' official release doesn't include the headers.

Just going back and bumping some of the more interesting reads of this thread since people can't be bothered to read and just talk crap. Here's one on how in season development is "stifled"

[What's Burning?]

I actually found this on the F1.com site and it summarizes things well.

ERS comprise two energy recovery systems (Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic [MGU-K] and Motor Generator Unit - Heat [MGU-H]), plus an Energy Store (ES) and control electronics.

The motor generator units convert mechanical and heat energy to electrical energy and vice versa. MGU-K works like an uprated version of KERS, converting kinetic energy generated under braking into electricity (rather than it escaping as heat). It also acts as a motor under acceleration, returning up to 120kW (approximately 160bhp) power to the drivetrain from the Energy Store.

MGU-H is an energy recovery system connected to the turbocharger of the engine and converts heat energy from exhaust gases into electrical energy. The energy can then be used to power the MGU-K (and thus the drivetrain) or be retained in the ES for subsequent use. Unlike the MGU-K which is limited to recovering 2MJ of energy per lap, the MGU-H is unlimited. MGU-H also controls the speed of the turbo, speeding it up (to prevent turbo lag) or slowing it down in place of a more traditional wastegate.

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than with 2013’s KERS. That means drivers should have an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

Details on the harvesting.

[What's Burning?]

Figured I'd throw this link here as well.

Renault could make radical changes for 2015 Remi Taffin says Renault has the capacity to completely revamp its engine for 2015 despite rules regarding what manufacturers can and cannot change for next year.

Engine development from season-to-season will be scaled down from 2015 onwards, with manufacturers allocated 32 tokens to decide what parts of the engine they wish to adjust and change for next year, a tally which will decrease until 2018. If all the tokens were spent it would allow manufacturers to change 48% of 45 different engine components for the new campaign.

When it was put to him that Renault could have an engine different "in every respect" in 2015, the manufacturer's head of track operations Taffin replied: "Yes, it could be. I'm not saying it's going to be, but it could be. The thing is you can go up to 50% of the tokens you are allotted, your amount of tokens is 60 [per season] so you can go up to 30. With 30 you can nearly change an [entire] engine if you look at all the components."

Taffin says Renault's philosophy with regards to the use of the tokens next year will be to hold nothing back.

"You always have people who say maybe we should wait for this, or this, or this. It's like when you go to a race and you start thinking about 'shall we go full power of full beans for this race'. Now is a good example, because the next race is Spa so maybe I should save [in Hungary]. Statistics show you have to take it full beans when you are on track, it's the same for developing - you take everything you can take because it will pay."

Despite the desire not to start 2015 on the back foot as it did this season, Taffin says plenty can be gained by working across multiple seasons instead of focusing solely on one.

"We are still focused on this year but 2015 has been going on for a while now. In complete fairness it's not like you work just on this or on this. Both are linked, anything you find on '15 you can bring in for '14 and visa versa. It's more a question of having deadlines for next year and decisions to make but we still keep running both programs at the same time."

"When you have something on your car you try to keep on progressing and developing it, while there are people still working in parallel who try to see if there is a solution being worked on somewhere else, or a completely different solution. If it's proved to be better at one point you stick on it. That is the situation we are in and what we will be in for three, four or five years until everything is frozen. That's why '14 and '15 are linked but also '16, because work on '16 has already started as well."

Another good read on the evolution of the PU in the coming years.

[What's Burning?]

Okay, that's enough for me. I read this thread again and it's actually hilarious how WRONG some people have been, and how it's easier to run or pretend your argument wasn't completely off base than it is to sit and watch your team be embarrassed in what was supposed to be their forte. At one point there's a YouTube clip assuring us that Red Bull and Vettel will surely be relevant in this 2014 season.

At one point one of the moderators "accidentally" deleted the previous 2014 Turbo Engine regulations page. and as it turns out the started hitting the fan around page 36 or 37 when it was clear how wrong Ferrari had gotten things and their altruistic desire to make F1 better came to the forefront, manifesting itself as an immediate need to lift the in season engine freeze for power gains agreement.

That's the problem with talking crap, it stays on the forum and regardless of how much its denied or pretended to not ever happening it's there for all to see.

[sagi58]

... the started hitting the fan around page 36 or 37 when it was clear how wrong Ferrari had gotten things and their altruistic desire to make F1 better came to the forefront, manifesting itself as an immediate need to lift the in season engine freeze for power gains agreement...

Would that be similar to how Mercedes insists they won't agree with a lifting of the freeze
until July, 2015 because they are so altruistically concerned about the good of F1?

I guess we'll just have to keep re-reading posts here because any comment defending them...

... stays on the forum and regardless of how much its denied or pretended to not ever happening it's there for all to see.

[CookinFlat6]

Okay, that's enough for me. I read this thread again and it's actually hilarious how WRONG some people have been, and how it's easier to run or pretend your argument wasn't completely off base than it is to sit and watch your team be embarrassed in what was supposed to be their forte. At one point there's a YouTube clip assuring us that Red Bull and Vettel will surely be relevant in this 2014 season.

At one point one of the moderators "accidentally" deleted the previous 2014 Turbo Engine regulations page. and as it turns out the started hitting the fan around page 36 or 37 when it was clear how wrong Ferrari had gotten things and their altruistic desire to make F1 better came to the forefront, manifesting itself as an immediate need to lift the in season engine freeze for power gains agreement.

That's the problem with talking crap, it stays on the forum and regardless of how much its denied or pretended to not ever happening it's there for all to see.

Lets hope no one turns up to complain about long posts full of facts putting people off from the activity of exchanging 1 line quips complete with whip smileys

Seriously though, some people need to decide if they are really interested in a discussion or debate geared towards uncovering a truth or coming to a consensus, or if they are just interested in moaning about something or talking about themselves

even when questions are asked and answers given, or assumptions corrected, the same people tend to continue saying the same things with no evolution or awareness, its like they just want to think what they think and keep telling everyone. 'I think this' - great, dont bring it into a discussion based on reality, why not keep uit in a thread called 'wouldnt it be good if...' etc etc

edit: I see someone already has

[sagi58]

You took the words right off my keyboard!!