FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[spankyham]

Nice post , but i still think my quoted points are as true as before your reply post,

they may have given us vancouver problems but they also give us 24 highly tuned and expensive racing cars every year which push the scientific envelope to the limit.

Agree with you - well at least about the front running teams. But also, what team is going to fit something to car without testing it first? It would never happen, they would test on Fri or in preseason but they don't turn up with a new aero package and say, "hey no need to test it, we'll just start the race with it on and adjust it during a pit stop if needed". The "suck-it-and-see" method isn't usually the best.

and for team prodixed kers i meant that its not one supplier and as a result they will differ.

plus we did see overtaking a lot this past year if you look at it, so i dont think it means only one place on a track can be used.

Yes, there was a lot of really good overtaking and exciting failed overtaking this year - and that was mostly great to watch. I guess my point is, if they give every driver whose trailing the same options to pass plus one where the driver gets some outside special help - then the guy behind is obviously going to take the easier/safer option. Why try the late braking risk when you know you've got the "magic" option where you're definitely faster and the guy ahead can only change line once and, no matter what can't crowd you off the track.

As for the defending. a place religiously, theyre ebtitled to one direction change per attack per section of track arent they, that definitelynstill makes it hard to overtake.

I think the rule last year was 2 changes of direction and there was nothing about "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, .... or any other abnormal change of direction are not permitted."

They should have run it in F2 for a year - ironed it out there (or throw it out if it sucks) and then, once they actually know how it effects a race then they could make a proper decision.

[scotty]

Come to think of it i can't actually think of a recent situation whereby the two lead cars were together on track and ultimately showed themselves to have the same net pace...

You're completely missing the point if you think this will only effect cars that are circulating with the same lap times. This will effect any car that cannot pull a second lead over a following car within 1 lap. Now, go and have a look at last years lap times and see how many cars could lap within a second of the first 3 cars?

A car that cannot pull out a second lead within one lap is wasting time and energy trying because within the lap, the car behind will be given the power to catchup (and try to pass if he wanted). But I don't think the car in front will try to pull away - no incentive.

I didn't actually say that at all if you re-read my post, i was just musing on a slight tangent there...

It's uncommon to see cars running together where one isn't faster than the other, that's my point. Before, if a driver was maybe only a few tenths faster in raw pace he would struggle to get past, but now he could get past and at least try and make the move stick before the next lap. So read that as me thinking the biggest change (generally speaking) will be seen where a following car is just slightly faster than the other - conversely i also think the implications will also vary greatly from track to track - some circuits have several potential active rear wing 'zones' (Monza) and others only one (Catalunya). Obviously, it's easier to make a gap around somewhere like Catalunya, hence why i say "generally speaking".

[spankyham]

Come to think of it i can't actually think of a recent situation whereby the two lead cars were together on track and ultimately showed themselves to have the same net pace...

You're completely missing the point if you think this will only effect cars that are circulating with the same lap times. This will effect any car that cannot pull a second lead over a following car within 1 lap. Now, go and have a look at last years lap times and see how many cars could lap within a second of the first 3 cars?

A car that cannot pull out a second lead within one lap is wasting time and energy trying because within the lap, the car behind will be given the power to catchup (and try to pass if he wanted). But I don't think the car in front will try to pull away - no incentive.

I didn't actually say that at all if you re-read my post, i was just musing on a slight tangent there...

It's uncommon to see cars running together where one isn't faster than the other, that's my point. Before, if a driver was maybe only a few tenths faster in raw pace he would struggle to get past, but now he could get past and at least try and make the move stick before the next lap. So read that as me thinking the biggest change (generally speaking) will be seen where a following car is just slightly faster than the other - conversely i also think the implications will also vary greatly from track to track - some circuits have several potential active rear wing 'zones' (Monza) and others only one (Catalunya). Obviously, it's easier to make a gap around somewhere like Catalunya, hence why i say "generally speaking".

Fair point, but, I still think that expecting a driver to pull ahead by a second in one lap is a very tall order (especially if we are talking about Ferrari, McLaren, RBR, Merc and Renault).

Also, even for circuits with several possible rear wing 'zones' the rule say it can only be activated in one - at that point will be defined by the RD at each race.

[vaptin]

Don't worry Hammer, I don't have a track record of getting threads locked, not sure how you can prove me wrong, I think I've been careful enough not to state my position yet.

I like the line of thinking Scotty's going through, first of all a 1 second gap in a race excluding safety cars and the start is pretty good going, it won't happen a lot anyway, so driver A gets past driver B, but isn't really a lot faster than driver A, so on the next lap driver B has a go at driver A, and this continues, until one driver makes a mistake or one puts in a great lap to get one second ahead by the time the movable wing part of the track comes up again on the next lap.

[racechick]

Newey reckons its gonna make overtaking too easy and we lose the spectacle of a stunning overtake. It also leads to drivers hanging back to make sure they're in second place on the last lap and can then do the overtake trick on the last straight. Ok we need more overtaking but if its like that its too manufactured and artificial and devalues the move. I realise they can tweek it through the season but there looks to be a lot of scope for this not being a good thing.

[nish2280]

It might be interesting to see how drivers will try to maintain their position on the last lap knowing that their opponent is creeping up behind them. I'm sure Schumi, Webber, Kubica will find awesome ways to block.

[Robert12010]

It might be interesting to see how drivers will try to maintain their position on the last lap knowing that their opponent is creeping up behind them. I'm sure Schumi, Webber, Kubica will find awesome ways to block.

[racechick]

Im not so sure they'll be able to, Here are Gary Anderson's thoughts:-
"On a typical straight of around 700meters you're probably looking at a 600meter window where you could deploy adjustable rear wings.
It will make a significant differnce......15km/h quicker . That equates to 100bhp advantage in engine terms.
You've got to be within a second of the car in front, and with that advantage you should be able to overtake really easily. But it wll be in the straight and won't be much of a challenge to the driver. What Adrian newey is saying might be right. It can be too easy an overtaking manoeuvre, much like a car with a big power advatage breezing past another one. It'll be a question of mirror, signal manoeuvre and you're ahead. You certainly won't see any Vitaly Petrov style rearguards."

[Jensonb]

Im not so sure they'll be able to, Here are Gary Anderson's thoughts:-
"On a typical straight of around 700meters you're probably looking at a 600meter window where you could deploy adjustable rear wings.
It will make a significant differnce......15km/h quicker . That equates to 100bhp advantage in engine terms.
You've got to be within a second of the car in front, and with that advantage you should be able to overtake really easily. But it wll be in the straight and won't be much of a challenge to the driver. What Adrian newey is saying might be right. It can be too easy an overtaking manoeuvre, much like a car with a big power advatage breezing past another one. It'll be a question of mirror, signal manoeuvre and you're ahead. You certainly won't see any Vitaly Petrov style rearguards."

It wouldn't matter anyway. The new racecraft rules are a joke. You can only move once to block, regardless of circumstances - no exceptions.

[racechick]

Im not so sure they'll be able to, Here are Gary Anderson's thoughts:-
"On a typical straight of around 700meters you're probably looking at a 600meter window where you could deploy adjustable rear wings.
It will make a significant differnce......15km/h quicker . That equates to 100bhp advantage in engine terms.
You've got to be within a second of the car in front, and with that advantage you should be able to overtake really easily. But it wll be in the straight and won't be much of a challenge to the driver. What Adrian newey is saying might be right. It can be too easy an overtaking manoeuvre, much like a car with a big power advatage breezing past another one. It'll be a question of mirror, signal manoeuvre and you're ahead. You certainly won't see any Vitaly Petrov style rearguards."

It wouldn't matter anyway. The new racecraft rules are a joke. You can only move once to block, regardless of circumstances - no exceptions.

It dosnt sound good. They seem hell bent on preventing real racing .

[spankyham]

Im not so sure they'll be able to, Here are Gary Anderson's thoughts:-
"On a typical straight of around 700meters you're probably looking at a 600meter window where you could deploy adjustable rear wings.
It will make a significant differnce......15km/h quicker . That equates to 100bhp advantage in engine terms.
You've got to be within a second of the car in front, and with that advantage you should be able to overtake really easily. But it wll be in the straight and won't be much of a challenge to the driver. What Adrian newey is saying might be right. It can be too easy an overtaking manoeuvre, much like a car with a big power advatage breezing past another one. It'll be a question of mirror, signal manoeuvre and you're ahead. You certainly won't see any Vitaly Petrov style rearguards."

It wouldn't matter anyway. The new racecraft rules are a joke. You can only move once to block, regardless of circumstances - no exceptions.

It dosnt sound good. They seem hell bent on preventing real racing .

RC & JB you are right on the money here. The combination of the rear wing rule, the banning of the DDD and the new racecraft rules are the most insane changes in F1. Hearing guys like Newey (& GA Horner and SD) come out and support the things I've been saying just makes me more convinced that this is a really stupid rule.

A power difference of 100bhp and a speed difference of 15kph - it will be like an F1 v GP2 car. An overtake is guaranteed and it is also guaranteed to be the most boring bland overtake possible. The banning of the DDD will contribute greatly also. Cars will be able to get close and get a real tow - on top of the rear wing boost. The turbulence of the DDD was a huge factor last year - remember Seb's front wing dancing up and down as he approached Jenson (just before spearing his sidepod?).

And, because this bland overtake option is so easily available it will definitely kill all other overtake maneuvers - meaning no more late braking passes or going round the outside.

These changes also mean that no car has any chance of pulling away from a chasing car. Remember, the following car only has to be within a second to have his rear wing activated on the main straight. Whatever the front guy can pull out will all be immediately handed back to the following car on the straight. Everyone, just think and remember how many times last year, during a race, were the front 3 teams lapping within a second of each other? Actually, there were many races where the front 5 teams were within a second of each other.

This is completely untested. You can have faith in engineers, but how many times do they test rocket engines before trying to launch? Would you go up in a rocket that had never been tested? Would you like your bank deploying beta versions of software - never been tested?

Lastly, someone is going to benefit from this rule hugely in the beginning. However they change the stupid rule during the season, will still mean it will be a different set of rules from one race to another. Just adding more stupidity to an already stupid set of changes.

They should dump the "magic" rear wing before Bahrain.

[Jensonb]

RC & JB you are right on the money here. The combination of the rear wing rule, the banning of the DDD and the new racecraft rules are the most insane changes in F1. Hearing guys like Newey (& GA Horner and SD) come out and support the things I've been saying just makes me more convinced that this is a really stupid rule.

A power difference of 100bhp and a speed difference of 15kph - it will be like an F1 v GP2 car. An overtake is guaranteed and it is also guaranteed to be the most boring bland overtake possible. The banning of the DDD will contribute greatly also. Cars will be able to get close and get a real tow - on top of the rear wing boost. The turbulence of the DDD was a huge factor last year - remember Seb's front wing dancing up and down as he approached Jenson (just before spearing his sidepod?).

And, because this bland overtake option is so easily available it will definitely kill all other overtake maneuvers - meaning no more late braking passes or going round the outside.

These changes also mean that no car has any chance of pulling away from a chasing car. Remember, the following car only has to be within a second to have his rear wing activated on the main straight. Whatever the front guy can pull out will all be immediately handed back to the following car on the straight. Everyone, just think and remember how many times last year, during a race, were the front 3 teams lapping within a second of each other? Actually, there were many races where the front 5 teams were within a second of each other.

This is completely untested. You can have faith in engineers, but how many times do they test rocket engines before trying to launch? Would you go up in a rocket that had never been tested? Would you like your bank deploying beta versions of software - never been tested?

Lastly, someone is going to benefit from this rule hugely in the beginning. However they change the stupid rule during the season, will still mean it will be a different set of rules from one race to another. Just adding more stupidity to an already stupid set of changes.

They should dump the "magic" rear wing before Bahrain.

I'm with you all the way Ham. To me, the rule changes made to "encourage overtaking" this year smack of trying to fix something which isn't really broken. I don't know a single person who would call the 2010 season (Bore-hrain and its not-fit-for-F1-racing infield endurance loop aside) boring - so why mess with it?

[loosecannon]

I don't remember the "good old days" when F1 cars had more power than grip and the best driver won because they made fewer mistakes, but maybe we need to make the cars a little harder to drive so mistakes (and passing) take place more often? I know that F1 is seen as the top of technology but road cars are already using more technology than F1 (stability control, traction control, etc) so my idea is to bring back manual shifting, allow different engine configurations (4,6,8,10,12,16 cylinder) and reduce wing size dramatically so it's more about mechanical grip and less about aero. Here's a turbo F1 car that is difficult to drive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3ElSq6 ... re=related

[Robert12010]

Im not so sure they'll be able to, Here are Gary Anderson's thoughts:-
"On a typical straight of around 700meters you're probably looking at a 600meter window where you could deploy adjustable rear wings.
It will make a significant differnce......15km/h quicker . That equates to 100bhp advantage in engine terms.
You've got to be within a second of the car in front, and with that advantage you should be able to overtake really easily. But it wll be in the straight and won't be much of a challenge to the driver. What Adrian newey is saying might be right. It can be too easy an overtaking manoeuvre, much like a car with a big power advatage breezing past another one. It'll be a question of mirror, signal manoeuvre and you're ahead. You certainly won't see any Vitaly Petrov style rearguards."

It wouldn't matter anyway. The new racecraft rules are a joke. You can only move once to block, regardless of circumstances - no exceptions.

It dosnt sound good. They seem hell bent on preventing real racing .

RC & JB you are right on the money here. The combination of the rear wing rule, the banning of the DDD and the new racecraft rules are the most insane changes in F1. Hearing guys like Newey (& GA Horner and SD) come out and support the things I've been saying just makes me more convinced that this is a really stupid rule.

A power difference of 100bhp and a speed difference of 15kph - it will be like an F1 v GP2 car. An overtake is guaranteed and it is also guaranteed to be the most boring bland overtake possible. The banning of the DDD will contribute greatly also. Cars will be able to get close and get a real tow - on top of the rear wing boost. The turbulence of the DDD was a huge factor last year - remember Seb's front wing dancing up and down as he approached Jenson (just before spearing his sidepod?).

And, because this bland overtake option is so easily available it will definitely kill all other overtake maneuvers - meaning no more late braking passes or going round the outside.

These changes also mean that no car has any chance of pulling away from a chasing car. Remember, the following car only has to be within a second to have his rear wing activated on the main straight. Whatever the front guy can pull out will all be immediately handed back to the following car on the straight. Everyone, just think and remember how many times last year, during a race, were the front 3 teams lapping within a second of each other? Actually, there were many races where the front 5 teams were within a second of each other.

This is completely untested. You can have faith in engineers, but how many times do they test rocket engines before trying to launch? Would you go up in a rocket that had never been tested? Would you like your bank deploying beta versions of software - never been tested?

Lastly, someone is going to benefit from this rule hugely in the beginning. However they change the stupid rule during the season, will still mean it will be a different set of rules from one race to another. Just adding more stupidity to an already stupid set of changes.

They should dump the "magic" rear wing before Bahrain.

well i do agree that the art of overtaking could become atrifical and the driver behind is going tbe able to stall the rear wing, use kers and kaboom, but the wing is desinated for one or two straights so we will have to see

[spankyham]

well i do agree that the art of overtaking could become atrifical and the driver behind is going tbe able to stall the rear wing, use kers and kaboom, but the wing is desinated for one or two straights so we will have to see

The opening of the wing (facilitated by the stewards) will only happen at one spot (a straight) per race.

Also, as I pointed out, it does not have to be used to pass. A much slower car can keep up with a faster car because every lap they will be given around a one second boost. Save himself for one final onslaught on the penultimate lap, get past down the straight with the magic button and "voila" the slower package wins with outside help.