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[f1ea]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

Ahh yes, i had forgotten about that.

[spankyham]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

It's pretty hard to pass at the best of times in modern day F1, although, it can be done.
The fact of the matter is, that, after the safety car came in, until Lewis's pitstop, he was only able to put in 4 laps with quicker times than Jenson. Dirty air or not, it was a great effort by Jenson on the prime tyre, to be consistently faster than Lewis on the option tyre. I just wonder (or maybe shudder a little) to think what Jenson might have done if he was able, as he suggested, to "cover" his main rivals for the WDC, by starting on the option tyre.

[bud]

".... we are in the fight for the championship and then you should cover the people that you are racing .... "
This is a very clear statement that he should have started on option tyres "to cover" the ones he felt he was competing with for the WDC.
And he goes on to mention this again when he says:-
"We didn’t do that."
For me, these are not the words of someone happy to be on option tyres at the start of the race.

You quite conveniently assume Jenson is talking about his tyre choice before the race. When infact he is complaining about the fact he stayed out too long on the primes,Thus not covering the pace of the cars on the option. not because of the tyre choice! Hello??? anyone home?? tyre choice was made in Q not before the race. IF he was pissed off dont you think he would have said something in the post qualifying wrap up?

Where is his comments pre race ?? if he said it then id agree with you

but you AGAIN IGNORE MY BRUNDLE FACT THAT JENSON WANTED TO RACE ON PRIMES THIS RACE AND HAS WANTED TO IN OTHER RACES Go watch the BBC coverage of Qualifying if you dont f***ing believe me!! im over it ive said my piece you can think Jenson was screwed over if it helps you think Ferrari making Massa a sacrificial lamb is ok what ever! ive had enough. ciao

[Hammer278]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

It's pretty hard to pass at the best of times in modern day F1, although, it can be done.
The fact of the matter is, that, after the safety car came in, until Lewis's pitstop, he was only able to put in 4 laps with quicker times than Jenson. Dirty air or not, it was a great effort by Jenson on the prime tyre, to be consistently faster than Lewis on the option tyre. I just wonder (or maybe shudder a little) to think what Jenson might have done if he was able, as he suggested, to "cover" his main rivals for the WDC, by starting on the option tyre.

Maybe he could match the pace of Lewis and not delay him as he did for the 1st half of the race. McLaren scored an own goal for Suzuka in more ways than 1.

I also shudder a little (maybe shiver) imagining what would have happened had Lewis not gotten the gearbox failure. He was reeling in Alonso like a hooked fish, it was unreal. *Grabbing my sweater now*

[bud]

Agaiiin if this Jenson starting on the prime was a big conspiracy by the team for the sake of Lewis then why didnt Jenson let Lewis by once he got stuck behind him in his dirty air? That just ruined their own team plan which Jenson was in on because he was in on his tyre choice in qualifying

so are the days of our lives

[myownalias]

I agree with bud; Jenson chose to qualify and start the race on the prime tyre, Jenson likes to go his own way, he thought that the option tyre would degrade quickly on the green track allowing him to run long and jump his rivals, that wasn't the case and the gamble didn't pay off, which is why he ended up holding up Hamilton before he pitted.

[spankyham]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

It's pretty hard to pass at the best of times in modern day F1, although, it can be done.
The fact of the matter is, that, after the safety car came in, until Lewis's pitstop, he was only able to put in 4 laps with quicker times than Jenson. Dirty air or not, it was a great effort by Jenson on the prime tyre, to be consistently faster than Lewis on the option tyre. I just wonder (or maybe shudder a little) to think what Jenson might have done if he was able, as he suggested, to "cover" his main rivals for the WDC, by starting on the option tyre.

Maybe he could match the pace of Lewis and not delay him as he did for the 1st half of the race. McLaren scored an own goal for Suzuka in more ways than 1.

I also shudder a little (maybe shiver) imagining what would have happened had Lewis not gotten the gearbox failure. He was reeling in Alonso like a hooked fish, it was unreal. *Grabbing my sweater now*

I think Jenson was the shining McLaren light at Susuka. As for Lewis catching Fernando, that's not how I see it.
Lewis's best lap before his gearbox failed was 1:35:182 on lap 35.
Fernando did a 1:35:214 on lap 30 (all that extra fuel and just as fast) Fernando had Lewis completely under control for mine.

*** Thinks, prepare yourself Spanky,
flame suit - check
extinguisher - check
water - check
post sedatives to Hammer - check

[Hammer278]

Yes thats not how you see it, just take 1 lap time and that tells it all. Whatever.

[bud]

Extra fuel ? WTF are you on?

[Hammer278]

Extra fuel ? WTF are you on?

I think he accidentally took in those sedatives one shot instead of posting them to me.

[spankyham]

Extra fuel ? WTF are you on?

I think he accidentally took in those sedatives one shot instead of posting them to me.

Now that was good Hammer - well done

I meant that Fernando set the same time (as Lewis's best lap time) 5 laps earlier than Lewis. He would have been carrying 5 laps of extra fuel at the time. His car would have been a lot heavier.

[bud]

And his tyres newer...

[spankyham]

And his tyres newer...

Come on mate, fastest times set at the end on lightest fuel and "oldest" tyres

[racechick]

Im sorry to hear about your sister, thats unbelievably sad , I cant imagine such a thing.

Thanks

Back to the debate. Thanks for your reply. Im not sure if you deliberately like to wind up or really believe some of the things you say. Lewis was under no threat from Schumacher, he had a big enough cushion, yes he'd slowed and did the right thing by letting Jenson through; but if there are team orders in Mclaren they would have been to make Jenson stay behind; because by taking those extra points Jens still actually slips further back and they might have been very, very useful to lewis in a few weeks time. Had the situation changed(Lewis' car failed/the mercedes inexplicably gained 30 seconds)then would be the time to let Jens through. But come on switch the scenario to Massa and Alonso and reread your team order strategy. I dont think so!!!

Honestly, in my mind I'm certain that McLaren use team orders now and in the past. I just try to give you my reasons why. And, yes, I might have a little "wind up" but I only do that if I can inject a little humour and it can be taken in good spirits.

You believe Lewis was under no threat from the both Mercedes. And Bud made a similar comment so this can respond to you both. At the time his gearbox failed, he was 27.949 seconds ahead of Nico and Michael. There were 14 laps left. McLaren reported Lewis was already loosing over 2 seconds a lap in his speed. Also, it would be reasonable to assume, at that moment that things would only be getting worse, as Lewis was also reporting bad noises. It means that the Merc's could most certainly have caught him before the race end. Honestly, to me, this is a no-brainer, get Jenson past as soon as possible.

Now, let me ask you these simple questions, do you agree that Jenson was faster than Lewis in Japan? (before the gearbox problems?)
I gave the stats earlier, but to refresh your mind -
1) Jenson was faster on the first 3 racing laps (after the SC) He pulled away from Lewis.
2) Jenson was faster on 7 of the 1st 10 racing laps (after the SC)
3) 1) & 2) happened while Jenson was on the Prime tyre and Lewis had the advantage of the softer option tyre!
4) Jenson had the fastest sector times (he was 3rd in S1 and 3rd in S2 - only behind both Bulls, and he was fastest in S3)

If you agree with the above, then don't you also agree that Jenson was totally screwed by the strategy to start on the primes? And, if Lewis didn't have his gearbox problems, wouldn't you agree that starting Jenson on primes would be an enormous help to Lewis given the Bulls were going to qualify ahead of them?

A lot of questions there, sorry about that, but I'm looking forward to your answers

I think your answers have been given by others, but here you go, here's my answers.
No Jenson wasnt faster in Japan.Lewis was not slower in the beginning, he was in dirty air so couldnt run to his speed. As soon as e was released he started banging in fastest laps. Why didnt he overtake? Probably because his last two overtakes went wrong and this was his team mate. Also he's had no setup time with the car (it was amazing he got 3rd in quali without any running), so he did what doesnt come naturally and played it safe.
Jenson was on the wrong tyres, but thats no ones fault but his own.You win some you lose some, same with Lewis' style. jenson's strategy calls have won some, this time it didnt.

The arguement about the mercs catchin doesnt wash. Had that been the case, which it wasnt, they could have made the decision much later. Jenson was much faster than a merc, he could have hung around protecting Lewis' points till they were 5 seconds behind then gone past.

How can you say McLaren put Jenson on that tyre strategy to screw him and help lewis and then failed so spectacularly to capitalise on it when they had two golden opportunities to do so???? Doesnt add up.

And why would they make a call at singapore at the first corner in the heat of battle for jenson to fall back and then in the very next race fail to take advantage of a much easier way to cheat?...twice!! Again doesnt add up. Saying Mclaren cheat by using team orders to help lewis wont make it right that Alonso benefits from cheating.

[spankyham]

A lot of questions there, sorry about that, but I'm looking forward to your answers

I think your answers have been given by others, but here you go, here's my answers.
No Jenson wasnt faster in Japan.Lewis was not slower in the beginning, he was in dirty air so couldnt run to his speed. As soon as e was released he started banging in fastest laps. Why didnt he overtake? Probably because his last two overtakes went wrong and this was his team mate. Also he's had no setup time with the car (it was amazing he got 3rd in quali without any running), so he did what doesnt come naturally and played it safe.
Jenson was on the wrong tyres, but thats no ones fault but his own.You win some you lose some, same with Lewis' style. jenson's strategy calls have won some, this time it didnt.

The arguement about the mercs catchin doesnt wash. Had that been the case, which it wasnt, they could have made the decision much later. Jenson was much faster than a merc, he could have hung around protecting Lewis' points till they were 5 seconds behind then gone past.

How can you say McLaren put Jenson on that tyre strategy to screw him and help lewis and then failed so spectacularly to capitalise on it when they had two golden opportunities to do so???? Doesnt add up.

And why would they make a call at singapore at the first corner in the heat of battle for jenson to fall back and then in the very next race fail to take advantage of a much easier way to cheat?...twice!! Again doesnt add up. Saying Mclaren cheat by using team orders to help lewis wont make it right that Alonso benefits from cheating.

This was really good thread and lots of points put out there. Thanks for your answers.
We each had our say so I'm not going to restate stuff.
We can just disagree on what happened at Singapore and Japan.
Perhaps Jenson will have more to say in the future on the tyres he started in Japan with - that would be interesting to hear.

I would say that, whilst you characterize "team" stuff as "cheating" I characterize it as the essence of "team" and selflessness. As so many great coaches and managers have said, there is no "i" in team.