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[spankyham]

Good point from the Darwin Dali, obviously I agree with that.
Also agree with SennaVille - the last little exchange has run it's course, we've put our points across. I'd only point out that SennaVille's parting comment is wrong

I did want to contribute something else to the thread though.

Last weekend I watched a round of the Australian Touring Cars Championship. It was the L&H Philip Island 500. It was a great race, won by the Holden Team Vodaphone car driven by Craig Lowndes and Mark Skaife (two legends of Australian Touring Cars).

Courtney and Whincup have realistic chances of winning the Drivers Championship. Winterbottom, is an outside chance, and Lowndes a more distant outsider. About 150-200 points for the race win with only 5 more races to go. Before this race Courtney had 1947, Whincup 1827, Winterbottom 1623 and Lowndes 1447.

With about 12 laps to go, the race was being led by the other Team Vodaphone car (driven by Wincup & ???).

Catching Whincup quickly was his teammate Lowndes.

Catching both Vodaphone cars was Winterbottom. Also, at the rate he was catching them both he would have been on their tails with a handful of laps to try and get past.

When Lowndes caught Whincup, the Vodaphone team boss, came over the radio and immediately issued the order "Lowndes is faster than you, Winterbottom is catching you both, move over and do not hold up Lowndes".

When Lowndes caught Whincup, it was clear he didn't want to move over, so the order was restated. Lowndes was allowed to pass and went on to win, Whincup ended up with a car problem and had to pull out of the race and Winterbottom couldn't catch Lowndes once he was clear as he was fast enough to keep Winterbottom at bay for the rest of the race.

Some observations from this:-

1) The team made the decision to win - above all other considerations, even with the full knowledge that it would have a serious negative effect on Whincup's DC aspirations.
2) The team secured the win directly via the Team Order.
3) Every fan heard the undisguised Team Order and there was no uproar, during or after.
4) The media during and after the event weren't critical of the Team Order, in fact they predicted it and supported it
5) The race was more thrilling with the added strategy of the Team Order.
6) The Team decision was completely vindicated because Whincup failed to finish and yet they won the race (always the prime objective of any team)

[bud]

Spanky, you seem to have an affinity for not only stating your opinions as if they were facts but then you go out of your way chastising someone else's opinion as fact.

Learn to separate the two and you'll lower your blood pressure, and enjoy life a bit more. Some people are argumentative or combative or condescending and it may all be a persona you've created here for your entertainment, that's fine. But it gets old when you continuously go out of your way to simply stir the pot.

You put decent thought into some of your posts, and you've shown that you're a knowledgeable F1 fan based on some of the input on certain topics, but just learn to quit while you're ahead, state your point, give your facts, give your opinions, (keep them separate) but don 't be so damned adversarial about the slightest thing that you disagree with. Take a deep breath and move on.

You're not going to change mindsets on either side of the fence. If you can't comprehend someone's opinion, they're allowed it, just like you force feed everyone else yours. No need to call someone a hypocrite when you're living in a glass house.

[spankyham]

Spanky, you seem to have an affinity for not only stating your opinions as if they were facts but then you go out of your way chastising someone else's opinion as fact.

So, in your opinion, my opinion of my opinions is they aren't opinions but facts. Also, in your opinion, my opinion is that other people's opinions need to be chastised.
A lot of inaccurate, attempted mind reading going on there, but, you're entitled to your opinion.

Learn to separate the two and you'll lower your blood pressure, and enjoy life a bit more.

My blood pressure at my last annual check up was 115/70 about what it has been for the last 10 years. But thanks heaps for your public concern regarding my health. I'm also enjoying my life immensely, thanks for your concern regarding my happiness.

Some people are argumentative or combative or condescending and it may all be a persona you've created here for your entertainment, that's fine. But it gets old when you continuously go out of your way to simply stir the pot.

Seems you start this lot out talking about some people, then your "some people" becomes me. According to you I'm continuously combative and condescending and stirring the pot. If by stirring the pot and being combative etc., you mean I take an opposing view, and present my view point accordingly, and you don't like that, then you seriously need to reconsider what you're doing reading forums - these are places where people do that.

You put decent thought into some of your posts, and you've shown that you're a knowledgeable F1 fan based on some of the input on certain topics, but just learn to quit while you're ahead, state your point, give your facts, give your opinions, (keep them separate) but don 't be so damned adversarial about the slightest thing that you disagree with. Take a deep breath and move on.

I try to make my contributions interesting and sometimes with a touch of humor. When I contribute to a thread, if someone takes an opposing view, we can elaborate and develop those thoughts over a string of posts. Sorry, but, if a response or a post provides me with some thoughts to share or to respond with, then I will. Again, that's what forums are form.

You're not going to change mindsets on either side of the fence.

I have no desire to change anyone's mindset, that is up to each person

If you can't comprehend someone's opinion, they're allowed it, just like you force feed everyone else yours.

If I can't comprehend someone, I will ask them. That's on the record. I've never said or implied anyone is not entitled to their opinion, quite the opposite. As I mentioned, this is a forum, people come here to read other peoples contributions, including there opinions. If you don't like mine, don't read them and use your "block button", rest assured I won't be losing any sleep over that.

No need to call someone a hypocrite when you're living in a glass house.

I haven't called people hypocrites, I called their logic flawed and hypocritical and I provided the examples as to how their logic was hypocritical - get your facts straight.

:pig:

As I've said before, it doesn't in the least bit bother me when someone turns to personal abuse or trying to insult me, I simply take it that I have won and they are bereft of logic to respond with.

[What's Burning?]

The comment was addressed to you directly, nothing hidden. No personal attacks, simply advice that you can either choose to heed, or completely ignore and see only as a personal attack on you.

I'm not here to win or lose arguments, I'm here simply to enjoy the information and discussion of everything F1 with some what nots and humor thrown in.

I'd rather lose an argument and learn something.

You contradict yourself more often than not, so no arguing necessary with circular logic.

[What's Burning?]

Team orders are not a pretty sight, especially for the public at large. However, just look at cycling with its plethora of water carriers: nobody moans about team orders or favoritism there because most all spectators know that this is the way it's done, from the get go I might add, none of that 75% nonsense.

Cycling suits the definition of the word team much better than F1. A cycling team is built around one GC contender, and sometimes a sprinter. ALL of the team resources, everything is out on the table and is handed to GC rider to help them win.

Ironically however in all of the years I've been a cycling fan (longer than F1 actually) I've never watched a team order given telling a domestique in the lead to hand that lead over to the GC rider right behind him.

My problem isn't with team orders, my problem on this issue is with the FIA treating fans like it was WWE instead of F1.

[spankyham]

Does anyone know when the FiA's F1 Sporting Working Group will review article 39.1?

[F1FanUSA]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

[Robert12010]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

because the main problem with the majority was that ferrari made it so obvious!, by rob smedly saying to felipe massa ok, so fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understand that message massa moves over then smedly says good lad stick with it now, sorry how obvious is that! and team orders are meant to be banned but they do occur

[F1FanUSA]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

because the main problem with the majority was that ferrari made it so obvious!, by rob smedly saying to felipe massa ok, so fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understand that message massa moves over then smedly says good lad stick with it now, sorry how obvious is that! and team orders are meant to be banned but they do occur

Ok well then that is the one thing that seems silly to me about F1. Like I said they should be able to be VERY obvious and just say "Massa move the F* over"!!

Sorry I guess that’s the one American view I bring to this.... And I'm not kidding... They should say it just like that and have to have the team radio on delay so they can bleep out the F* word...

[Robert12010]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

because the main problem with the majority was that ferrari made it so obvious!, by rob smedly saying to felipe massa ok, so fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understand that message massa moves over then smedly says good lad stick with it now, sorry how obvious is that! and team orders are meant to be banned but they do occur

Ok well then that is the one thing that seems silly to me about F1. Like I said they should be able to be VERY obvious and just say "Massa move the F* over"!!Sorry I guess that’s the one American view I bring to this.... And I'm not kidding... They should say it just like that and have to have the team radio on delay so they can bleep out the F* word...

!

[Fact Man]

This is how I will do it:

1- Team orders that will affect the WCC should be allowed. If 1 car is faster than the other, the faster car should be allowed to pass so it can collect as many points as possible for the WCC.

2- Team orders should not be allowed for the WDC, unless 1 of the drivers is out of the championship. As long as both drivers have a chance at the WDC, no team order whatsoever should be allowed (unless a driver moves aside on his own without the team order/radio). If and when a driver is out of the WDC, he can follow team orders if he chooses so (team would have to clarify their strategy with both drivers and get their approval).

[spankyham]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

because the main problem with the majority was that ferrari made it so obvious!, by rob smedly saying to felipe massa ok, so fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understand that message massa moves over then smedly says good lad stick with it now, sorry how obvious is that! and team orders are meant to be banned but they do occur

Ok well then that is the one thing that seems silly to me about F1. Like I said they should be able to be VERY obvious and just say "Massa move the F* over"!!

Sorry I guess that’s the one American view I bring to this.... And I'm not kidding... They should say it just like that and have to have the team radio on delay so they can bleep out the F* word...

The team orders thing seems to have become an issue in recent times in F1. As you've pointed out, it's normal in the US and I gave this example where team orders where directly issued in the Australian Touring Car round at Philip Island this year by team Vodafone and not one commentator or media outlet gave them a second thought other than to praise them for giving them so decisively.

Historically, team orders were completely normal in F1. In fact, in the days of Fangio, lead drivers would take over their other team car if their own car was out. I think Fangio won one of his WDC based on doing that.

It came to head in F1 in 2002 when Rubens was ordered to pull over and allow his team-mate MS to pass. IMO (note this is just my opinion) you need to consider that British fans, and media in the 80's and 90's were a very large and vocal group in the F1 world. What's more, they had been through a "golden era" (about 20 odd years) of winning a championship every year. But things changed from 2000 with the combination of MS and a revived Ferrari team. 2002 had seen them dominate for the last two years and, they were looking ominous in 2002. So the victory starved fans and media latched onto the Team Orders thing.

Thankfully Team Orders are to be reviewed by the FiA and I'm sure they will make the rules more workable and transparent, while at the same time, enabling teams to actually be teams

[Robert12010]

Coming from America where team sports reign supreme I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is... The constructor competition is what brings all the money. If it’s better for the team then get the F out of the way!! It should be totally legal and acceptable for the team to say "Massa move the f* over for Alonso and then proceed to hold up the cars behind you!!" Why is that so bad to people?!?

because the main problem with the majority was that ferrari made it so obvious!, by rob smedly saying to felipe massa ok, so fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understand that message massa moves over then smedly says good lad stick with it now, sorry how obvious is that! and team orders are meant to be banned but they do occur

Ok well then that is the one thing that seems silly to me about F1. Like I said they should be able to be VERY obvious and just say "Massa move the F* over"!!

Sorry I guess that’s the one American view I bring to this.... And I'm not kidding... They should say it just like that and have to have the team radio on delay so they can bleep out the F* word...

The team orders thing seems to have become an issue in recent times in F1. As you've pointed out, it's normal in the US and I gave this example where team orders where directly issued in the Australian Touring Car round at Philip Island this year by team Vodafone and not one commentator or media outlet gave them a second thought other than to praise them for giving them so decisively.

Historically, team orders were completely normal in F1. In fact, in the days of Fangio, lead drivers would take over their other team car if their own car was out. I think Fangio won one of his WDC based on doing that.

It came to head in F1 in 2002 when Rubens was ordered to pull over and allow his team-mate MS to pass. IMO (note this is just my opinion) you need to consider that British fans, and media in the 80's and 90's were a very large and vocal group in the F1 world. What's more, they had been through a "golden era" (about 20 odd years) of winning a championship every year. But things changed from 2000 with the combination of MS and a revived Ferrari team. 2002 had seen them dominate for the last two years and, they were looking ominous in 2002. So the victory starved fans and media latched onto the Team Orders thing.

Thankfully Team Orders are to be reviewed by the FiA and I'm sure they will make the rules more workable and transparent, while at the same time, enabling teams to actually be teams

and allow the sport to be run without a political arguement every 5 mins !:hehe:

[The_Stig_Money]

F1fanUSA makes a interesting comment

"Let your team mate passthen hold up the other cars behind you"

Advancing a team mate should not be against the rules as long as there is numbers to prove your decision. IE lap time,champion points, tire wear....

A defensive team order should not be allowed. IE Hold up the cars behind you, crash to provoke the safety car, taking out other drivers

Favoritism should be punished

This is very hard to keep drivers name out of this

[F1FanUSA]

F1fanUSA makes a interesting comment

"Let your team mate passthen hold up the other cars behind you"

Advancing a team mate should not be against the rules as long as there is numbers to prove your decision. IE lap time,champion points, tire wear....

A defensive team order should not be allowed. IE Hold up the cars behind you, crash to provoke the safety car, taking out other drivers

Favoritism should be punished

This is very hard to keep drivers name out of this

By holding up cars behind you I mean keep them from passing... not causing crashes!! Drivers hold up cars behind them strategically in every single race in F1. It’s part of the sport.