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[sagi58]

Are litigators not the ones who ignore pertinent questions and focus on technicalities? For example instead of complain about denigrating comments why not just answer the pertinent questions and put your side of the debate.

try this one which relates to this specific thread;

What happened to the satisfaction that comes from competing and beating your peers on a level playing field? Would Ferrari fans really be happy if the rules were changed from 'historical team bonus' of 25 points head start to 150? 250? 500?

Word of the Day:

lit•i•ga•tor (ˈlɪt ɪˌgeɪ tər) n. a person who litigates.
lit·i·gate (lt-gt)
v. lit·i·gat·ed, lit·i·gat·ing, lit·i·gates
v.tr. To contest in legal proceedings.
v.intr. To engage in legal proceedings.

Life, in general, and F1, in particular, is not a level playing field. Where F1 is concerned, it would seem to me that those who insist on the level playing field have changed the rules over and over again, to the point where everything is so regulated, structured and homogenized (e.g., Pirelli tires) that F1 is fast becoming what many fans of the sport are bemoaning: b.o.r.i.n.g.
The question would be, do we keep adding further measures to forcibly create a level playing field, or do we let the big boys duke it out? If the "only" argument is about the money, then I would repeat: If you can't play with the big boys, don't join the game.
Look, I love a good story about the "underdog" winning; but, F1 is a "fantasy" sport, as such, everyone need not apply!
Harsh? Sure! It is what it is!

Please forgive me if I don't play along by answering your last question, as it doesn't merit the effort!

[CookinFlat6]

And there we have it in a nutshell. The answer to the OP 'Ferrari can veto Bernies successor????'

is

'Thats how it is and thats allright then although no convincing or logic based explanation can be put forward. Its how life is and we have to just accept the status quo and therefore need no justification is required'

Its like the skit when a guy turns around to the society lady next to him at dinner and says 'would you sleep with someone for $100 million, to which she smiles coquettishly and says 'yes why not'
Then the guys says 'would you sleep with a guy for $10, and she slaps him and says 'what type of lady do you think I am?' And he says 'we already agreed what type you are, we are now haggling about the price'

So in this case Ferrari fans defend and accept the team starting each season with the equivalence of a points advantage. But when that is extrapolated to starting the season say with a 100 point lead its suddenly a question that should not be asked or is irrelevant.

Can any Ferrari fans answer this question? - 'Would you be similarly happy if your team started the season with a 'historic team' points advantage of 100?, would you still argue about the fans Ferrari bring? Would you say life is an unlevel playing field and some start with inheritance?

Its not about letting the big boys duke it out as there would only be Merc, RBR and Ferrari left - there are even rumours that Ferrari is no longer able to outspend or keep up with the other 2

Thing is sports are normally about competition, with human talent the differentiator. Only in F1 is money and how much you spend so pivotal. Why would anyone want fewer competitors? So if we all want say 10 competitive teams surely its better to say lets find ways of all 10 competing on the same level, rather than say let 7 go bust and let the competition be about deep pockets

We the spectators would be the losers. Whats so hard about this concept? As far as a starting points advantage for 1 team because of its history, why wont any Ferrari fans address this question and tell us why its fair for a team to start with 100 point headstart?

[spankyham]

oooops... I did it again!! .....

Queue Brittany in red

[sagi58]

And there we have it in a nutshell. The answer to the OP 'Ferrari can veto Bernies successor????'

is

'Thats how it is and thats allright then although no convincing or logic based explanation can be put forward. Its how life is and we have to just accept the status quo and therefore need no justification is required'

That's what you think I said??

...So in this case Ferrari fans defend and accept the team starting each season with the equivalence of a points advantage. But when that is extrapolated to starting the season say with a 100 point lead its suddenly a question that should not be asked or is irrelevant...

You floor me!! That's not what I meant when I said there was no reason to answer your facetious question;
but, since you seem confused, let me clarify for you:

NO Tifoso/a I know has ever suggested this!!
NO Tifoso/a I know would ever suggest this!!
The first time I ever heard that suggestion, it came from YOU!

((By the way, are YOU are looking for an argument! ))

...Its not about letting the big boys duke it out as there would only be Merc, RBR and Ferrari left - there are even rumours that Ferrari is no longer able to outspend or keep up with the other 2

Thing is sports are normally about competition, with human talent the differentiator. Only in F1 is money and how much you spend so pivotal. Why would anyone want fewer competitors? So if we all want say 10 competitive teams surely its better to say lets find ways of all 10 competing on the same level, rather than say let 7 go bust and let the competition be about deep pockets...

I have already mentioned that I believe more of the profits being realized by FOM should be given back to the teams in an equitable fashion.
But, understand one thing, you can't change history. What's done is done. Trying to equalize the present by penalizing the past, isn't justified
by an attempt to make amends as it then becomes a case of for how long and how much, which will always be a subjective argument.

...Thing is sports are normally about competition, with human talent the differentiator. Only in F1 is money and how much you spend so pivotal. Why would anyone want fewer competitors? So if we all want say 10 competitive teams surely its better to say lets find ways of all 10 competing on the same level, rather than say let 7 go bust and let the competition be about deep pockets

We the spectators would be the losers. Whats so hard about this concept?

Nothing about true sportsmanship is difficult to understand; but, do you honestly believe the "only" difference between the teams/drivers is actually the amount of money a team spends on developing their car? Is it really that simplistic? What about the money they spend on the people "behind the scenes"? What about the money they spend on drivers? Are teams to have standardized budgets in every field, to make F1 more level? How is that fair? How does penalizing a team that is willing to go the extra mile fair?

If that's the case, then why not argue that all drivers race around in the same car and that they all be paid the same wage, with the same training, the same trainer? Because, THAT is the ONLY way where talent is the ONLY difference and that is the ONLY way you can TRULY say that money is not an issue.

Personally, that is not the F1 I want!

[sagi58]

oooops... I did it again!! .....

Queue Brittany in red

Ferrari red looks good on anyone... even her!!

[racechick]

Well it looks like that veto card may need to be deployed sooner or later because a labour MP has called for the serious fraud squad to begin investigating Bernie's tax affairs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25307307

[CookinFlat6]

And there we have it in a nutshell. The answer to the OP 'Ferrari can veto Bernies successor????'

is

'Thats how it is and thats allright then although no convincing or logic based explanation can be put forward. Its how life is and we have to just accept the status quo and therefore need no justification is required'

That's what you think I said??

...So in this case Ferrari fans defend and accept the team starting each season with the equivalence of a points advantage. But when that is extrapolated to starting the season say with a 100 point lead its suddenly a question that should not be asked or is irrelevant...

You floor me!! That's not what I meant when I said there was no reason to answer your facetious question;
but, since you seem confused, let me clarify for you:

NO Tifoso/a I know has ever suggested this!!
NO Tifoso/a I know would ever suggest this!!
The first time I ever heard that suggestion, it came from YOU!

Hmmnn

Well, Ferrari DOES have special status and you may as well accept it, even if you don't like it/agree with it, because it is what it is!

You guys are just being facetious now

I'm being deadly serious. SF should push every advantage and rule they can. I take my hat off to Red Bull over the past 4 years they have proven the better team at this and well done by them I say. To the other, as I mentioned earlier - cry me a river.

Ok so 2 Ferrari supporters say its ok to push every advantage and rule they can, including the special status situation.
So my simple question to you remains - Special status and vetoes and extra money equates to a points advantage at the start of each season.
Would you be happy if the FIA just handed over 100 point lead at the start of each season instead? Yes or No?

Nothing about true sportsmanship is difficult to understand; but, do you honestly believe the "only" difference between the teams/drivers is actually the amount of money a team spends on developing their car? Is it really that simplistic? What about the money they spend on the people "behind the scenes"? What about the money they spend on drivers? Are teams to have standardized budgets in every field, to make F1 more level? How is that fair? How does penalizing a team that is willing to go the extra mile fair?

If that's the case, then why not argue that all drivers race around in the same car and that they all be paid the same wage, with the same training, the same trainer? Because, THAT is the ONLY way where talent is the ONLY difference and that is the ONLY way you can TRULY say that money is not an issue.

Personally, that is not the F1 I want!

If you dont see the irony in differentiating between the money spent on development and the money spent on staff then you wont have noticed Merc and Ferrari poaching staff with higher salaries. You may have noticed that there is a simple formula regarding expensive drivers, does one spend more on the car or on a driver? which brings more time, Hulk who is slower than Alonso but costs much less and the saving is put into hiring an engineer.

Everyone can see the problems here which is why everyone has agreed for a costs capping. No matter how romantic we are or idealistic, the reality is that F1 as a competition of 10 teams cannot survive the new spend vs income ratios.

[sagi58]

Ok so 2 Ferrari supporters say its ok to push every advantage and rule they can, including the special status situation.
So my simple question to you remains - Special status and vetoes and extra money equates to a points advantage at the start of each season.
Would you be happy if the FIA just handed over 100 point lead at the start of each season instead? Yes or No?

Maybe in YOUR mind; but, I do NOT agree that that equates to a points advantage!!

As for the point lead, here, let me be as clear as crystal:



Give it up, already, eh?

[bud]

Ok so 2 Ferrari supporters say its ok to push every advantage and rule they can, including the special status situation.
So my simple question to you remains - Special status and vetoes and extra money equates to a points advantage at the start of each season.
Would you be happy if the FIA just handed over 100 point lead at the start of each season instead? Yes or No?

Maybe in YOUR mind; but, I do NOT agree that that equates to a points advantage!!

As for the point lead, here, let me be as clear as crystal:



Give it up, already, eh?

It doesn't? money is everything in F1 they have an uneven head start over their rivals. Thrown on top of their illegal major sponsorship money from a tobacco company. Yeah Ferrari play fair!!

[sagi58]

If you dont see the irony in differentiating between the money spent on development and the money spent on staff then you wont have noticed Merc and Ferrari poaching staff with higher salaries. You may have noticed that there is a simple formula regarding expensive drivers, does one spend more on the car or on a driver? which brings more time, Hulk who is slower than Alonso but costs much less and the saving is put into hiring an engineer.

Everyone can see the problems here which is why everyone has agreed for a costs capping. No matter how romantic we are or idealistic, the reality is that F1 as a competition of 10 teams cannot survive the new spend vs income ratios.

You may like to re-read what I've written, because it would seem you didn't understand it, the first time around!!
But, I'll play... again...
You suggested that F1 is the only sport where money is more pivotal than talent. I beg to disagree.
Talent is ONE aspect of a winning team, as is the staff / budget / etc. that it has. EACH aspect is
important, as EACH aspect contributes to the success of the team.
Bascially, F1 is a prime example that proves "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"!!

Do I want there to be only three rich teams on the grid? But, surely there is some middle ground!!
I've already gone on record to say that there should be a more equitable share of the profits realized by FOM!!
However, your romanticized view of leveling the playing field completely and indiscriminately via costs capping
with "human talent the differentiator" would only be possible if all drivers were in the same car.

Unfortunately, that particular scenario that has nothing to do with team competition.

[sagi58]

...money is everything in F1 they have an uneven head start over their rivals. Thrown on top of their illegal major sponsorship money from a tobacco company. Yeah Ferrari play fair!!

Money is NOT everything in F1! It may "buy" a lot; but, it is NOT everything!
If it was, then Ferrari should have been the team to beat these last four years, no?

[racechick]

Maybe they bought the wrong things.

[sagi58]

Maybe they bought the wrong things.

Yup! I'd say the only ones in the right cue were Red Bull!

[racechick]

Maybe they bought the wrong things.

Yup! I'd say the only ones in the right cue were Red Bull!

Yes. If you can afford...or tempt Newey you're onto a winner.

[sagi58]

Maybe they bought the wrong things.

Yup! I'd say the only ones in the right cue were Red Bull!

Yes. If you can afford...or tempt Newey you're onto a winner.

It would seem he's not for sale!