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[stonemonkey]

It really should be simple to test/prove. Line up a series of these FiA sensors, subject them to a white-box flow rate and total measurement test and the readings must all be exactly the same.

It might not be that simple, In a noiseless environment they may all give the same readings within tolerance but to simulate the noise they will be subjected to in the car and to apply the same conditions or the conditions in particular cars to a series of sensors wouldn't be so easy.

[spankyham]

It really should be simple to test/prove. Line up a series of these FiA sensors, subject them to a white-box flow rate and total measurement test and the readings must all be exactly the same.

It might not be that simple, In a noiseless environment they may all give the same readings within tolerance but to simulate the noise they will be subjected to in the car and to apply the same conditions or the conditions in particular cars to a series of sensors wouldn't be so easy.

Very true, but, on the other hand, if Red Bull can show in a simple white-box test that the FiA sensors produce different readings/outcomes even in such a simple controlled test then it would clearly demonstrate the sensors given to each team are not the "same". Personally I believe that would be very compelling and persuasive to overturn the disqualification of Dan. I believe the FiA have a precedent from last year where there were problems in the ECU and the FiA agreed to not use the extended features for the first race last year.

[spankyham]

'Red Bull's commitment has limits'

Red Bull founder Dietrich Mateschitz has warned that the energy drink manufacturer isn't infinitely committed to Formula One, after Daniel Ricciardo was excluded from the Australian Grand Prix over disputed fuel flow sensor data.

Speaking to Vienna-based publication Kurier, the Austrian billionaire admitted that Red Bull could leave the sport if it is no longer producing the desired results.

"The fact is that the federation's sensor has given inaccurate values since the beginning of the (winter) tests," Mateschitz told Kurier.

"We can prove that we were within the limits [in Australia].



"The question is not so much about whether it makes economic sense, but more to do with the sporting value, political influence and the like.

"We have had it all but on these things from our perspective there is a clear limit to what we can accept."

The normally private Mateschitz added that he is somewhat frustrated by the FIA's decision to take the sport into a greener, quieter era with the focus on more efficient V6 engines.

"Formula One should be again what it always has been: the ultimate discipline," the 69-year-old added.

"It is not there to set new records in fuel consumption, or so you can talk at a whisper during a race and the greatest thrill is the squealing of the tyres.

"I consider it equally absurd that we are going a second slower than last year and that the junior series GP2 is almost as fast as formula one with a fraction of the budget.

Despite his dislike for the new F1 regulations, Mateschitz added that the reigning World Champions will continue developing their car throughout the season in the hope of catching up with the Mercedes-powered cars.

"We are working around the clock with our partner Renault and will make another big step in the next two to three weeks. There are 18 races to go," he continued.

"We will be back."

[stonemonkey]

Didn't he say something similar about commitment a year or two ago except then it was about economic value?

[What's Burning?]

If Red Bull can show in a simple white-box test that the FiA sensors produce different readings/outcomes even in such a simple controlled test then it would clearly demonstrate the sensors given to each team are not the "same".

Even if that was so, it is a leap on the part of RBR to assume that the sensors the other teams were given were working correctly and only their sensor was defective. There would have to be differences in the sensors used by the other teams, not just Red Bull's sensor being defective.

If the other teams sensors are also optimistic in their measurements as RBR is claiming then there is an equal playing field, which was the agreements all the teams made in Bahrain and stuck with in Melbourne.

So RBR has a two fold task, prove the sensors is overly optimistic, and prove that the sensor put it at a disadvantage against other teams. Only if they prove both facts can there be weight to their argument. If only one of those is true, then the DSQ has to be upheld. I also looks very suspect having chosen to replace the sensor on only one car. The first thing I'd do if I was the FiA is make them prove to me that there is a difference between the two sensors they used. If not, it's all over for them because it shines a light on their duplicitous intent.

[spankyham]

If Red Bull can show in a simple white-box test that the FiA sensors produce different readings/outcomes even in such a simple controlled test then it would clearly demonstrate the sensors given to each team are not the "same".

Even if that was so, it is a leap on the part of RBR to assume that the sensors the other teams were given were working correctly and only their sensor was defective. There would have to be differences in the sensors used by the other teams, not just Red Bull's sensor being defective.

If the other teams sensors are also optimistic in their measurements as RBR is claiming then there is an equal playing field, which was the agreements all the teams made in Bahrain and stuck with in Melbourne.

So RBR has a two fold task, prove the sensors is overly optimistic, and prove that the sensor put it at a disadvantage against other teams. Only if they prove both facts can there be weight to their argument. If only one of those is true, then the DSQ has to be upheld.

From a "legal" point of view not really. All RBR would need to prove is the sensors are not the "same". If they can prove that potential then the sensors and their readings could not be relied upon IMO. Similar to the ECU situation at the start of last year.

[What's Burning?]

If Red Bull can show in a simple white-box test that the FiA sensors produce different readings/outcomes even in such a simple controlled test then it would clearly demonstrate the sensors given to each team are not the "same".

Even if that was so, it is a leap on the part of RBR to assume that the sensors the other teams were given were working correctly and only their sensor was defective. There would have to be differences in the sensors used by the other teams, not just Red Bull's sensor being defective.

If the other teams sensors are also optimistic in their measurements as RBR is claiming then there is an equal playing field, which was the agreements all the teams made in Bahrain and stuck with in Melbourne.

So RBR has a two fold task, prove the sensors is overly optimistic, and prove that the sensor put it at a disadvantage against other teams. Only if they prove both facts can there be weight to their argument. If only one of those is true, then the DSQ has to be upheld.

From a "legal" point of view not really. All RBR would need to prove is the sensors are not the "same". If they can prove that potential then the sensors and their readings could not be relied upon IMO. Similar to the ECU situation at the start of last year.

"IF"
That's the big question. I'm thinking they were testing the waters for an advantage out of desperation with the engine. Not that the sensor was faulty.

[spankyham]

"IF"
That's the big question. I'm thinking they were testing the waters for an advantage out of desperation with the engine. Not that the sensor was faulty.

I guess they feel compelled to try. One thing RBR showed was they have a car that is fast and near competitive. They have a great driver in Seb, and he now has the opportunity to showcase more of his talent and skills.

[stonemonkey]

From some of the things I've read, it may be that the sensors are showing spurious spikes or ringing in their readings, the output data rate was reduced from 10Hz to 5Hz in an attempt to reduce the spikes which can show the fuel flow going over the limit even when the actual rate is within the limit. That's why Merc and some other teams reduced their max fuel flow, so the spikes wouldn't show them being over the limit. I don't know if that's actually the case or if it's that that's put RB over the limit or not, I don't think it's just a case that the sensor was giving high readings though.

[NHcheese]

Who thinks they will leave the sport?

[spankyham]

Apparently one of the heads of the Porsche LMP1 team has vicariously thrown support behind RBR by questioned the reliability of the FiA sensor - it is also used by the FiA in LM series this year.

[racechick]

Where would f1 be without its intrigues, plots, inadequacies, haplessness and lunacy?

[1Lemon]

Where would f1 be without its corruption

Fixed that for ya

[Hammer278]

Corruption is everywhere, the more money involved the higher the corruption...let's not kid ourselves that F1 is the only corrupted sport out there.

[1Lemon]

Corruption is everywhere, the more money involved the higher the corruption...let's not kid ourselves that F1 is the only corrupted sport out there.

Oh god no, but I think you'll struggle to find a sport that is rooted to the very core in corruption, as much as F1 is, from the very top to the very bottom.