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[Hammer278]

Sagi, the 'proof' is in the history books...Hamilton is 2nd, Alonso 3rd in equal cars, at the end of 2007.

If you can't accept this as 'proof', you'll accept nothing so why bother.

Sagi asked for proof about who was responsible for all the negative things that happen at McLaren in 2007.

The history books show that Fernando beat Lewis every year he has driven for Ferrari. Last year he did it in a lower ranked team car, and did it quite convincingly.

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If she followed that season, there would be no trouble in understanding that Alonso played a very big part in causing McLaren's DSQ from the WCC. I don't think anyone's going to take the trouble finding links and news items where Alonso threw McLaren into the fire....they're everywhere and a simple google search can help anyone refresh their memory.

Nobody cares about Alonso beating Hamilton when they are in different cars. You're measured firstly by your teammate. All we know for sure is that Lewis beat Alonso in EQUAL machinery during Lewis' rookie season. Both had equally reliable cars to work with. Fact.

Last year in a "lower ranked team car"? Any "facts" to back this up please? Don't tell me to look at the WCC, that was just Mercedes having 2 strong drivers while Ferrari having drivers of different capacity..

Edited to remove derogatory names applied to drivers. Please follow the forum guidelines.

[spankyham]

Sagi, the 'proof' is in the history books...Hamilton is 2nd, Alonso 3rd in equal cars, at the end of 2007.

If you can't accept this as 'proof', you'll accept nothing so why bother.

Sagi asked for proof about who was responsible for all the negative things that happen at McLaren in 2007.

The history books show that Fernando beat Lewis every year he has driven for Ferrari. Last year he did it in a lower ranked team car, and did it quite convincingly.

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If she followed that season, there would be no trouble in understanding that Alonso played a very big part in causing McLaren's DSQ from the WCC. I don't think anyone's going to take the trouble finding links and news items where Alonso threw McLaren into the fire....they're everywhere and a simple google search can help anyone refresh their memory.

Sagi's question was directed to another member who had set the standard in their discussion very clearly as needing proof. Sagi is entitled to ask for the same back. If you want to join in that conversation but don't want to offer proof then perhaps you could say whilst you don't have proof at the level requested, that "from your memory" .....

Nobody cares about Alonso beating Hamilton when they are in different cars. You're measured firstly by your teammate. All we know for sure is that Lewis beat Alonso in EQUAL machinery during Lewis' rookie season. Both had equally reliable cars to work with. Fact.

Extremely sweeping statement, and patently untrue as I for one do care and I'm sure I'm not Robinson Crusoe.
It is also fact that Fernando has beaten Lewis every year he has driven for Ferrari and no amount of old history from 2007 will change that.

Last year in a "lower ranked team car"? Any "facts" to back this up please?

Most people recognize the Merc last year was a superior car to the Ferrari and the WCC reflected that.

[Hammer278]

Sagi's question was directed to another member who had set the standard in their discussion very clearly as needing proof. Sagi is entitled to ask for the same back. If you want to join in that conversation but don't want to offer proof then perhaps you could say whilst you don't have proof at the level requested, that "from your memory" .....

My point being the proof is all over the net. I assume anyone using this forum will have the knowledge and capacity to do some simple research in order to easily find out that Alonso played his part in causing McLaren's downfall that season. The timeline of events from when Alonso was squealing (this isn't deragotary, its what actually happened so pls don't edit) to when McLaren got handed are self explanatory and anyone with common sense and aren't in denial WILL understand that if Alonso had kept his mouth shut and played for the team and not for himself, McLaren were a shoe-in to lock up the WCC that year. If you followed the season and looked at the events which transpired, you'd have to be pretty thick to be asking for 'proof'.

Nobody cares about Alonso beating Hamilton when they are in different cars. You're measured firstly by your teammate. All we know for sure is that Lewis beat Alonso in EQUAL machinery during Lewis' rookie season. Both had equally reliable cars to work with. Fact.

Extremely sweeping statement, and patently untrue as I for one do care and I'm sure I'm not Robinson Crusoe.
It is also fact that Fernando has beaten Lewis every year he has driven for Ferrari and no amount of old history from 2007 will change that.

Okay, you care about judging drivers abilities while they are in different machinery and different team philosophies in team management, if that's how you prefer to judge drivers head to head.....hey, knock yourself out.

And you're right, in terms of the WDC standings, Alonso has beaten Lewis the past few years just like Vettel has beaten Alonso the past few 4 years which would mean Vettel is without doubt more talented and a quicker driver than ALonso - following YOUR thinking. Fair enough.

Last year in a "lower ranked team car"? Any "facts" to back this up please?

Most people recognize the Merc last year was a superior car to the Ferrari and the WCC reflected that.

"Most people"? You, and what army? Provide some numbers of 'most people' thinking the Merc was superior please....I don't appreciate these extremely sweeping statements.

[spankyham]

Seems my quoted post has been edited quite a lot.

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[Hammer278]

Seems my quoted post has been edited quite a lot.

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None of your words have been edited, I wouldn't do such a thing. Just makes it easier to see my response to each part of your quote...so take it easy.

[spankyham]

I'll send you a message on how to lay this out so it is both clear and does not have you changing my post

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[Hammer278]

Don't bother.
Text removed.
I'm not changing my style of posting just to make you happy.


Edited to remove insulting/abusive content. Please follow the forum guidelines.

[LRW]

Id have to say, I agree with Hammer (for once). He didnt change your post. Its was obvious what was his replies, and what was spankies original post.

The only thing I might of done is made the responses a different colour. But I think bold is more obvious in the standard forum skin, and Ive now got used to the nightmare that is Acid Tiger - where bold isn't as obvious.

[CookinFlat6]

If we assume that the FIA are the ruling body here, then we can all hopefully accept that their history are the accepted facts

In 2007 Alonso was punished by the FIA for unsporting conduct towards his own teammate - FACT
In 2007 Alonso discussed illegal Ferrari data with another McLaren employeee over email - Fact
in 2007 McLaren were found guilty of handling illegal Farrari data - FACT
In 2007 Lewis the rookie beat the 2x reigning WDC to second in the title standings - FACT
Since 2007 Lewis has been more successful in terms of titles won than Alonso - FACT
Since 2007 - Alonso has not won any title - FACT
Since 2007 Alonso and Lewis have been in different teams with different cars, trackside operations, management and budget - FACT
2014 is a brand new year, a brand new start and the winner from Alonso or Lewis will be the one who has placed himself in the best position with best resources to triumph(still not a head to head comparison as different teams, but we can always look back at 2007 to see how they compare as teammates for reference) - FACT

I hope we can all accept these hard facts and move forward in harmony

[Hammer278]

Don't bother.
Text removed.
I'm not changing my style of posting just to make you happy.


Edited to remove insulting/abusive content. Please follow the forum guidelines.

This is getting ridiculous. Deleting the part where I said "I never changed or edited any of your words, and nobody else has had a problem with this style" this is insulting/abusive content? Get a f**king grip mate.

What's all this leaning towards, getting me banned? You've risen over my posts in the last 24 hours more than you've risen over the whole of 2013. And we know why this started now don't we?

[spankyham]

If we assume that the FIA are the ruling body here, then we can all hopefully accept that their history are the accepted facts

Ruling body I can agree with, but I'd hate to think that was implying they are sensible

In 2007 Alonso was punished by the FIA for unsporting conduct towards his own teammate - FACT
In 2007 Alonso discussed illegal Ferrari data with another McLaren employeee over email - Fact
in 2007 McLaren were found guilty of handling illegal Farrari data - FACT
In 2007 Lewis the rookie beat the 2x reigning WDC to second in the title standings - FACT
Since 2007 Lewis has been more successful in terms of titles won than Alonso - FACT
Since 2007 - Alonso has not won any title - FACT
Since 2007 Alonso and Lewis have been in different teams with different cars, trackside operations, management and budget - FACT

I have no problem with any of those. You probably should add that 2007 saw the greatest rookie year ever in F1 history - also from Lewis. He is an awesomely good and fast driver.
Perhaps we can add some other fact from the FiA like 2011 seeing Jenson beating Lewis - not on a countback but with an actual points difference. But the same year Nando again beat Lewis. So Jenson in a McLaren could best Nando in 2011 (hats off the him for that) while Lewis in the same car was beaten by Nando.

2014 is a brand new year, a brand new start and the winner from Alonso or Lewis will be the one who has placed himself in the best position with best resources to triumph(still not a head to head comparison as different teams, but we can always look back at 2007 to see how they compare as teammates for reference) - FACT

I'm sure we will have some great discussion all through 2014 (just like every other season) about who is best and why. And I look forward to that.

I hope we can all accept these hard facts and move forward in harmony

We don't always have to agree to have harmony - I find it easy to respect your views even when I don't agree with them. I don't like abuse, stereotyping or profiling but that is way different thing

[LRW]

Is it Spanky moderating your posts? I would of thought it a bit iffy a Mod moderating posts of someone he is arguing with. There are plenty of other Mods on here right now that could be moderating - allowing him free to argue.

If it IS Spanky modding your posts, I'll be honest, it comes across as a little iffy.

[spankyham]

Don't bother.
Text removed.
I'm not changing my style of posting just to make you happy.


Edited to remove insulting/abusive content. Please follow the forum guidelines.

This is getting ridiculous. Deleting the part where I said "I never changed or edited any of your words, and nobody else has had a problem with this style" this is insulting/abusive content? Get a f**king grip mate.

What's all this leaning towards, getting me banned? You've risen over my posts in the last 24 hours more than you've risen over the whole of 2013. And we know why this started now don't we?

Indeed we know, because of your abusive/insulting language. Make all the points you like without that (and follow the guidelines) and you won't have a problem from any of the mods - me included. Don't feel that because this is a Ferrari thread that it somehow excludes me from enforcing the rules. Some good advice, chill a little and there is no need for you to be sent on another fishing trip.

[spankyham]

Is it Spanky moderating your posts? I would of thought it a bit iffy a Mod moderating posts of someone he is arguing with. There are plenty of other Mods on here right now that could be moderating - allowing him free to argue.

If it IS Spanky modding your posts, I'll be honest, it comes across as a little iffy.

Noted, but as it is simply removing abusive/insulting comments it will be done by whichever mod is around and gets to it first.

[Hammer278]

Don't bother.
Text removed.
I'm not changing my style of posting just to make you happy.


Edited to remove insulting/abusive content. Please follow the forum guidelines.

This is getting ridiculous. Deleting the part where I said "I never changed or edited any of your words, and nobody else has had a problem with this style" this is insulting/abusive content? Get a f**king grip mate.

What's all this leaning towards, getting me banned? You've risen over my posts in the last 24 hours more than you've risen over the whole of 2013. And we know why this started now don't we?

Indeed we know, because of your abusive/insulting language. Make all the points you like without that (and follow the guidelines) and you won't have a problem from any of the mods - me included. Don't feel that because this is a Ferrari thread that it somehow excludes me from enforcing the rules. Some good advice, chill a little and there is no need for you to be sent on another fishing trip.

I've been following guidelines and if you're interpreting nearly anything I write as "abusive/insulting" that doesn't make it my problem.

And do take your own advice.....I've not been sent on any fishing trips for over a year and this is because of sane and balanced mods who understand how to take constructive criticisms like grownups and respond back in kind. Mods are fans, and if I have crossed any lines, 2 WARNINGS are issued firstly before trips. Might want to brush up on that part of the rules too. Just because you didn't appreciate my points in bold up there and unable to respond wouldn't mean you need to start issuing threats.

Have a good day.