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Just as it says...
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#119623
How do you know what I know or don't know?

And, just for the record, if you are religious, you are deluded.
User avatar
By EwanM
#119628
It's a bit wrong to say that.
Freedom of speech and all that, but people are entitled to believe in religion if they so wish.

I don't go to church or practice religion of any kind, but I haven't a problem with people doing so.
By Gaz
#119631
he can say that tho its his opinion.

i agree with it, i wouldn't say it to a religous person that directly however so i see your point.
Last edited by Gaz on 20 May 09, 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Dutchcruijff
#119632
How do you know what I know or don't know?

And, just for the record, if you are religious, you are deluded.

"which I assume you would have hardly any idea about..." Can I not even assume?

Your point of view but I just think that's a poor statement to make...by that Martin Luther King was deluded, Gandhi was deluded, JFK was deluded darn even Obama is deluded now...
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#119633
It's a bit wrong to say that.
Freedom of speak and all that, but people are entitled to believe in religion if they so wish.

I don't go to church or practice religion of any kind, but I haven't a problem with people doing so.

How is it wrong? Dutchcruijff is free to say what he wants, and he can believe whatever he wants. However, just because people believe in religion, does not make it true.
User avatar
By EwanM
#119636
I don't care if people are for or against religion, but it shouldn't come to people berating each other over a Formula One Forum. Especially in such a polarised manner as this is turning out to be between Dutch and yourself.


You know what? I'm just going to stay outta this...

Back to motors for me.
User avatar
By scotty
#119639
And, just for the record, if you are religious, you are deluded.


Depends, some people just use religion as a means of providing them with morals while accepting the fictitous/metaphorical nature of the religious text or ideal in question... if they don't have the capacity to decide what is right or wrong for themselves that is! :wink:

The fundamentalist types though... :doh:
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#119640
How do you know what I know or don't know?

And, just for the record, if you are religious, you are deluded.

"which I assume you would have hardly any idea about..." Can I not even assume?

Your point of view but I just think that's a poor statement to make...by that Martin Luther King was deluded, Gandhi was deluded, JFK was deluded darn even Obama is deluded now...

Yes, King, Gandhi, Kennedy and Obama were/are deluded and compartmentalised.

This is not to say that everybody throughout history was deluded. The people you mentioned had all of the information necessary to know the existence of god(s) is highly unlikely. If you go back into, say, ancient history, as scientific evidence was so sparse, the existence of god(s) was a plausible explanation for the origins of the universe, etc.
User avatar
By Gilles 27
#119642
As a non-believer in any supreme being, I believe that religious texts have an important role to play in society when considered as philosophies or parables. They contain many valid messages that still apply to a modern, even atheist society about things like fairness, forgiveness and offer guidance to people who feel they need it. Although the practice of organised religion is something I feel is not essential to the modern world and I agree that there are conflicting and deplorable messages contained within many religious texts, I believe that valid lessons can be learned from them.
I believe the Bible should be considered by society in the same way as Plato's elite, a flawed but valuable philosophy that is contextualised within an ancient society that perhaps does directly reflect the modern world
User avatar
By darwin dali
#119647
I believe the Bible should be considered by society in the same way as Plato's elite, a flawed but valuable philosophy that is contextualised within an ancient society that perhaps does directly reflect the modern world

The bible was conceived by a cruel, misogynist, warmongering, vengeful patriarch bunch of tribes not worthy to be a role model.
User avatar
By Gilles 27
#119652
I didn't know them personally but I'll take your word for it.
The New Testament, particularly the ludicrous tales about Jesus and his miracles when viewed as parables or normative reflections on social values offer some valid messages about generosity, restraint and tolerance. Agreed, the Bible also contains much that undermines these messages but if someone reads the bible and takes these positive messages from it, that can only be a good thing in my opinion.
User avatar
By Dutchcruijff
#119653
How do you know what I know or don't know?

And, just for the record, if you are religious, you are deluded.

"which I assume you would have hardly any idea about..." Can I not even assume?

Your point of view but I just think that's a poor statement to make...by that Martin Luther King was deluded, Gandhi was deluded, JFK was deluded darn even Obama is deluded now...

Yes, King, Gandhi, Kennedy and Obama were/are deluded and compartmentalised.

This is not to say that everybody throughout history was deluded. The people you mentioned had all of the information necessary to know the existence of god(s) is highly unlikely. If you go back into, say, ancient history, as scientific evidence was so sparse, the existence of god(s) was a plausible explanation for the origins of the universe, etc.

For argument's sake, if there was a "God" why would we he want to be found out? What would be the motive? To turn everyone into a theist even though he has given them free-will and choice...
User avatar
By Jensonb
#119669
I always find this argument defeats the aims of both sides.

If you want to believe something, fine. But don't try and tell other people they're wrong unless you can demonstrably prove it. As far as I'm concerned, as long as what you believe does no damage and is not shoved down the throats of others*, I don't care.

*So Scientology, Latter Day Liars and so on are not treated so leniently.
User avatar
By f1ea
#119693
As a non-believer in any supreme being, I believe that religious texts have an important role to play in society when considered as philosophies or parables. They contain many valid messages that still apply to a modern, even atheist society about things like fairness, forgiveness and offer guidance to people who feel they need it. Although the practice of organised religion is something I feel is not essential to the modern world and I agree that there are conflicting and deplorable messages contained within many religious texts, I believe that valid lessons can be learned from them. I believe the Bible should be considered by society in the same way as Plato's elite, a flawed but valuable philosophy that is contextualised within an ancient society that perhaps does directly reflect the modern world


The New Testament, particularly the ludicrous tales about Jesus and his miracles when viewed as parables or normative reflections on social values offer some valid messages about generosity, restraint and tolerance. Agreed, the Bible also contains much that undermines these messages but if someone reads the bible and takes these positive messages from it, that can only be a good thing in my opinion.


My views exactly.
VERY well said :thumbup:

Maybe adding that some individuals and institutions take it upon themselves to interpret the Bible (and other religious books) to their own convinience, thus undermining the real message being conveyed. But this is more the result / actions of individuals rather than religion itself.
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#119752
As a non-believer in any supreme being, I believe that religious texts have an important role to play in society when considered as philosophies or parables. They contain many valid messages that still apply to a modern, even atheist society about things like fairness, forgiveness and offer guidance to people who feel they need it. Although the practice of organised religion is something I feel is not essential to the modern world and I agree that there are conflicting and deplorable messages contained within many religious texts, I believe that valid lessons can be learned from them.
I believe the Bible should be considered by society in the same way as Plato's elite, a flawed but valuable philosophy that is contextualised within an ancient society that perhaps does directly reflect the modern world

I'm not suggesting religion should be eradicated in the sense of writing rewriting history. Religion should still be taught in schools etc. as a cultural exercise. It is impossible to understand human history and culture from any era or part of the world without a knowledge of religion: what it meant for people to pray, what it meant for Michaelangelo to paint what he did, etc. Furthermore, religious texts and artefacts tell you a lot about particular cultures as well, as they are a reflexion of cultures, and a creator of them.

Parable-like explanations are a useful way to teach things to people, too; but techniques such as this were not newly-invented by the Bible. In the Western tradition, you can find similar practices in ancient Greek literature. Plato's dialogues - written about 500 years before much of the New Testament - immediately spring to mind, in which Sokrates uses a number of witty anecdotes and allegories to debate with other sophists, public figures, etc. So, I don't think it is true to say without the Bible no such means of explanation would exist. Instead of being referred to the Gospels, somebody could be pointed quite easily to other sources.

For argument's sake, if there was a "God" why would we he want to be found out? What would be the motive? To turn everyone into a theist even though he has given them free-will and choice...

An intellectually dishonest post. You say 'if there was a "God"', which implies you are talking about any god, but then move to quote from the Bible and talk about the Christian god. Quoting the Christianity is folly, too, because, as I've touched upon earlier, there is a number of problems with religious texts. There are many varying accounts of the same event, they are not primary sources, there are historical inaccuracies, there are internal contradictions, etc. And this is the only evidence you have for the existence of god(s). It amounts to nothing.

Also, for what's it's worth, the free-will argument also exposes another contradiction in Christian doctrine, and no theologian has ever been able to explain it. The Fall was predestined to happen, and God, in his omniscience, was aware of this. Furthermore, God took no action to suitably deal with Satan, and allowed him to travel to Paradise unhindered. But yet, at the same time, Man was meant to have free will?
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