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I suppose I should expect it from AKR but really, the idea that a champion is somehow not all he could have been until he wins in a Ferrari is total nonsense. In practical terms, it's a world drivers' championship, and all the cars from Ferrari to Force India are basically four wheels, an engine and some wings, so it doesn't matter what you're driving.
Lets take a few examples:
Juan Manuel Fangio: did win for (Lancia-)Ferrari in 1956 but hated his time at the Scuderia and left as soon as he could. He's much more synonymous with Mercedes and Maserati and it doesn't diminish him any.
Stirling Moss: Wouldn't touch Ferrari with a bargepole, but still an absolute legend.
Jack Brabham: Can you imagine him at Ferrari? No. Does it diminish him? no.
Jim Clark: Only ever drove for Lotus (another evocative name), unquestionably an all-time great.
Jackie Stewart: Turned Ferrari down because they messed him about, and he was only ever going to say yes when Ken Tyrrell rang. Another all-time great.
Alain Prost: won three titles at McLaren, wooden spoon at Ferrari. Then they chucked him out because he dared to criticised the car, which was rubbish that season. But at Ferrari that's blasphemy...
Ayrton Senna: Never drove for Ferrari, and it's probably just as well. Given his absolute total focus and dedication to his work, the kind of nonsense that went on at Ferrari during the 80s and early 90s (see above) would probably have ended up in him murdering someone out of sheer frustration.
Jean Alesi: turned down Williams to drive for Ferrari. Won only one race. Tragic.
Another interesting case study is that apart from Ascari, Fangio and Schumacher, Ferrari have had some pretty average world champions. Look at the names: Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Surtees, Scheckter. Even Lauda is probably the least respected of the triple world champions. It's almost as if Ferrari had a deliberate policy of hiring good-but-not-great drivers to show it was the car and not the driver that was the crucial factor, and I think that probably was the case.
And the idea that McLaren are just an average marque is laughable. Ferrari may be the most evocative name in F1, but of the teams still running McLaren is definitely second, and by some margin.
Another interesting case study is that apart from Ascari, Fangio and Schumacher, Ferrari have had some pretty average world champions. Look at the names: Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Surtees, Scheckter. Even Lauda is probably the least respected of the triple world champions. It's almost as if Ferrari had a deliberate policy of hiring good-but-not-great drivers to show it was the car and not the driver that was the crucial factor, and I think that probably was the case.
And the idea that McLaren are just an average marque is laughable. Ferrari may be the most evocative name in F1, but of the teams still running McLaren is definitely second, and by some margin.
Another interesting case study is that apart from Ascari, Fangio and Schumacher, Ferrari have had some pretty average world champions. Look at the names: Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Surtees, Scheckter. Even Lauda is probably the least respected of the triple world champions. It's almost as if Ferrari had a deliberate policy of hiring good-but-not-great drivers to show it was the car and not the driver that was the crucial factor, and I think that probably was the case.
You forgot Kimi Raikkonen as an average driver. Your McLaren reject that eventually won at Ferrari because at least he had a good car then, but got walked all over by Massa in 2008 and if in 2009 doesn't perform like in 2007 then needs to be shown the door. And I wouldn't underrate Niki Lauda like that. He was a legend no doubt and didn't he win the title for McLaren in 1984. I guess then by what you say he is also your average McLaren World Champion.
As for your comments about McLaren - Come on AKR, you can't tell me you don't enjoy it more when Ferrari pip McLaren to the title than when other teams are the main challengers...
I can't see Lewis in a Ferrari, same way I could never see Mika in a Ferrari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-NVm-AtI1M
One of my favourite Mika moments.
Senna would of eventually gone to Ferrari had he not left us so early... if Lewis Hamilton went to Ferrari, for himself, he would be remembered as an even greater world champion if he won for Ferrari...Why do you think Michael Schumacher is so great........
Everyone who wants to be big needs Ferrari. Just ask Alonso who really, really wants to go there. Remember McLaren is an average name. Ferrari is legendary. Anthony Hamilton knows it and so do you...................
The constructors is more important. People who know little about F1 will say the drivers is more important as the media makes out it to be more important. But as far as F1 and the teams are concerned, the constructors is more important. And Ferrari are the CURRENT CHAMPIONS AGAIN. And for the 7th time this decade!!!!!!!!!! YEAH CAMON!!!!!!!!!! Beat that record!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 7 titles in 9 years and if we win again next season it will be 8 in 10 years. Already I cant see anyone beaten our record. Just like no one will ever beat Michael Schumacher's record.....
Lets take a few examples:
Juan Manuel Fangio: did win for (Lancia-)Ferrari in 1956 but hated his time at the Scuderia and left as soon as he could. He's much more synonymous with Mercedes and Maserati and it doesn't diminish him any.
Stirling Moss: Wouldn't touch Ferrari with a bargepole, but still an absolute legend.
Jack Brabham: Can you imagine him at Ferrari? No. Does it diminish him? no.
Jim Clark: Only ever drove for Lotus (another evocative name), unquestionably an all-time great.
Jackie Stewart: Turned Ferrari down because they messed him about, and he was only ever going to say yes when Ken Tyrrell rang. Another all-time great.
Alain Prost: won three titles at McLaren, wooden spoon at Ferrari. Then they chucked him out because he dared to criticised the car, which was rubbish that season. But at Ferrari that's blasphemy...
Ayrton Senna: Never drove for Ferrari, and it's probably just as well. Given his absolute total focus and dedication to his work, the kind of nonsense that went on at Ferrari during the 80s and early 90s (see above) would probably have ended up in him murdering someone out of sheer frustration.
Jean Alesi: turned down Williams to drive for Ferrari. Won only one race. Tragic.
Another interesting case study is that apart from Ascari, Fangio and Schumacher, Ferrari have had some pretty average world champions. Look at the names: Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Surtees, Scheckter. Even Lauda is probably the least respected of the triple world champions. It's almost as if Ferrari had a deliberate policy of hiring good-but-not-great drivers to show it was the car and not the driver that was the crucial factor, and I think that probably was the case.
Excellent post. Another thing: remember the old saying about the tifosi: when Ferrari are winning, it's because of the car; but when they are losing, it's because of the driver.
Excellent post. Another thing: remember the old saying about the tifosi: when Ferrari are winning, it's because of the car; but when they are losing, it's because of the driver.
Actually that is a Mercedes saying. Remember when there was a team called Sauber-ilmor/Mercedes? That was the engines that eventually left Sauber for McLaren. Well I remember Murray Walker saying that that Mercedes would say, when that car did well it was powered by a Mercedes engine but when it performed poorly it was powered by an ilmor engine. How ironic, must be human nature I guess.
PS Regading the WDC and WCC. The WDC maybe older and have more hype because of the media, however as Lewis Hamilton won it, you can only say that he individually is world champion. Not McLaren. You can add that he drove a McLaren but the fact remains the he, Lewis Hamilton is World Champion and not McLaren. Regarding the WCC I can clearly say that Ferrari are World Champion. As a manufactuer/team/car/constructor I can say that Ferrari are the Champions of 2008 and thus my reasoning as to why I would say in that regards the WCC is more important. The WDC is more about the driver, his interest and only his. If one wants, they could go further and say Lewis Hamilton only cares about his own interests and not that of the team and thus his WDC is a perfect reflection of that. The WCC represents the efforts of the entire team. Not just Massa or Kimi, but both of then combimined plus the rest of the team, engineers, mechanics etc.
Actually that is a Mercedes saying. Remember when there was a team called Sauber-ilmor/Mercedes? That was the engines that eventually left Sauber for McLaren. Well I remember Murray Walker saying that that Mercedes would say, when that car did well it was powered by a Mercedes engine but when it performed poorly it was powered by an ilmor engine. How ironic, must be human nature I guess.
PS Regading the WDC and WCC. The WDC maybe older and have more hype because of the media, however as Lewis Hamilton won it, you can only say that he individually is world champion. Not McLaren. You can add that he drove a McLaren but the fact remains the he, Lewis Hamilton is World Champion and not McLaren. Regarding the WCC I can clearly say that Ferrari are World Champion. As a manufactuer/team/car/constructor I can say that Ferrari are the Champions of 2008 and thus my reasoning as to why I would say in that regards the WCC is more important. The WDC is more about the driver, his interest and only his. If one wants, they could go further and say Lewis Hamilton only cares about his own interests and not that of the team and thus his WDC is a perfect reflection of that. The WCC represents the efforts of the entire team. Not just Massa or Kimi, but both of then combimined plus the rest of the team, engineers, mechanics etc.
No, Kiki, I'm said what I did because it's true. Formula One is a team sport. Moreover, the drivers' title represents the efforts of the entire team as well. Who is who designs and builds the cars? Who is that cleans the factory and cooks the food for the team's staff? Who is it who ships the cars out to Grands Prix? Who builds the cars and sets up the garages for a Grand Prix? Who makes all the strategy calls over a race weekend? Who changes in the tyres and refuels the cars in pit stops? Oh, that's it right, it would be the whole team.
No, Kiki, I'm said what I did because it's true. Formula One is a team sport. Moreover, the drivers' title represents the efforts of the entire team as well. Who is who designs and builds the cars? Who is that cleans the factory and cooks the food for the team's staff? Who is it who ships the cars out to Grands Prix? Who builds the cars and sets up the garages for a Grand Prix? Who makes all the strategy calls over a race weekend? Who changes in the tyres and refuels the cars in pit stops? Oh, that's it right, it would be the whole team.
Still sounds like something that is better represented by the WCC. I.e. The whole team........................
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