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#248034
1.Its a bumpy track and it could be a breaking zone.
2. Its a diffrent part of the track, so you can't compare it to another car.
3. Its not nearly as low, RE SpankyHams "nose flex images"
4. Its a higher angle look at the rear tyres on spankys pic.


You're completely missing my point. I never said it wasn't moving as much as Red Bull, but it still sure as hell is flexing! :shock:
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By vlad
#248035
Yep, he should have done it...
But no, he has to complain 'cause McLaren isn't the fastest car... :rolleyes:
By Gaz
#248036
They passed the tests, the officials say it's legal, so...


Exactly! :rofl::doh: It's no more illegal than an f-duct or double diffuser. Whether those devices were within the spirit of the rules or not is all opinion but their legality is stone cold fact.


Double diffuser went though court to be deemed legal.

F-duct was investigated and became leagal.

This is so very gray, the FIA have tried to stop it by toughening the wing tests but couldn't get them to fail its movable aero, f-ducst and dd wasn' -just air manipulation
By Gaz
#248038
1.Its a bumpy track and it could be a breaking zone.
2. Its a diffrent part of the track, so you can't compare it to another car.
3. Its not nearly as low, RE SpankyHams "nose flex images"
4. Its a higher angle look at the rear tyres on spankys pic.


You're completely missing my point. I never said it wasn't moving as much as Red Bull, but it still sure as hell is flexing! :shock:


Yes, but your missing my point, i'm saying its flexing more because as spankys image suggest the WHOLE NOSE is moving as apposed to the leading edge of the wing on Mclaren.
User avatar
By bud
#248039
1.Its a bumpy track and it could be a breaking zone.
2. Its a diffrent part of the track, so you can't compare it to another car.
3. Its not nearly as low, RE SpankyHams "nose flex images"
4. Its a higher angle look at the rear tyres on spankys pic.


You're completely missing my point. I never said it wasn't moving as much as Red Bull, but it still sure as hell is flexing! :shock:


Are you suggesting none of us realize that wings flex under pressure? That's never been the issue it's about how much the wings flex! Redbulls clearly flex more than any other team!
#248041
1.Its a bumpy track and it could be a breaking zone.
2. Its a diffrent part of the track, so you can't compare it to another car.
3. Its not nearly as low, RE SpankyHams "nose flex images"
4. Its a higher angle look at the rear tyres on spankys pic.


You're completely missing my point. I never said it wasn't moving as much as Red Bull, but it still sure as hell is flexing! :shock:


Are you suggesting none of us realize that wings flex under pressure? That's never been the issue it's about how much the wings flex! Redbulls clearly flex more than any other team!



it's Red Bull's nose flexing, not the wing. :twisted:
User avatar
By scotty
#248074
Double diffuser went though court to be deemed legal.

F-duct was investigated and became leagal.

This is so very gray, the FIA have tried to stop it by toughening the wing tests but couldn't get them to fail its movable aero, f-ducst and dd wasn' -just air manipulation


F-duct wasn't a form of movable aero and this is? You're breaking my balls here!

Yes, but your missing my point, i'm saying its flexing more because as spankys image suggest the WHOLE NOSE is moving as apposed to the leading edge of the wing on Mclaren.


I've already commented on the images spanky posted... even the guy who originally created those comparisons (over on f1tech) acknowledges what i alluded to in that post.

Are you suggesting none of us realize that wings flex under pressure? That's never been the issue it's about how much the wings flex! Redbulls clearly flex more than any other team!


No, i'm just trying to figure out exactly why people have seen fit to say that Red Bull have crossed the line on how flexible the wings are, when really the only 'line' is the one people seem to have made up because they don't like what is going on. I mean, where is the rule that stipulates how much a wing can flex on track?
#248090
I mean, where is the rule that stipulates how much a wing can flex on track?

...Are you kidding? You're kidding right? The rule we've been discussing this whole time is that exact rule. It's just written incorrectly.
#248095
Yep, he should have done it...
But no, he has to complain 'cause McLaren isn't the fastest car... :rolleyes:


Unfortunetly, as much as i would like to disagree....

it is the truth.

And i was totally behind the F-Duct's legality.
User avatar
By f1ea
#248097
I mean, where is the rule that stipulates how much a wing can flex on track?

...Are you kidding? You're kidding right? The rule we've been discussing this whole time is that exact rule. It's just written incorrectly.


but the rule doesn't care what the wing does on track. it only cares about its static flexing, i dont think its written incorrectly, i think its just the engineers found the way to go about it following the behaviour they wanted the wing to have.

just because Red bull's nose looks like its flexing more doesnt make it more illegal. they could have the front wing designed or set up to get more load (ie more downforce at the front than other teams) and that makes the wing flex more. they could both be the very same nose, if one is loaded more, it will flex more.
#248101
Ah, stop complaining, you wouldn't be the one protesting if McLaren had it!



oh dont worry about that, as lewis says ''we're coming for you'' be prepared :twisted:
User avatar
By scotty
#248106
I mean, where is the rule that stipulates how much a wing can flex on track?

...Are you kidding? You're kidding right? The rule we've been discussing this whole time is that exact rule. It's just written incorrectly.


Yeah don't try and insult my intelligence with stupid remarks, it's just childish. Not to mention simply incorrect given that there is no rule saying, for example, "surface x must not deflect more than 10mm at 250kph", which is my point there. The cars are and have always been a product of the rules. It doesn't work backwards. The powers that be can change the rules to change the cars, but it doesn't work backwards. How can a rule be written 'incorrectly' based on that?

Here is the particular article i believe so many of you are annoyed with:

Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 (in addition to minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom) ;
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.
No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.


So, all well and good right? No... because that rule is so god damn vague that it is completely unenforcable with that wording alone. This is where the load tests come in, to determine a exact and definite point within that immensely grey area where the wing becomes illegal. That, therefore, is the absolute rule that the cars will be designed to, a process involving numbers that allow exact solutions to be engineered under pure logical conditions, rather than vague wording and opinion, as it is the only reasonable thing to do. It's the same process for all other areas of the car, why does the front wing need special treatment?

In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.


Until this happens, that car is legal and that car will retain this advantage. I'd love to hear a good explanation to the contrary other than it being against the spirit of the rules because really such a reason is a bit of a cop out argument (no offence), as it's just opinion.

The only way they can truly enforce this effectively is to have a windtunnel and measure the deflection, but they can't really do that at circuits all over the world. Alternatively they can ramp up the load tests until such a point where it's simply dangerous due to how rigid the wings will be. Not really gonna work either, right? So, i guess spec materials or wings are the only option remaining as far as i can see...
#248107
Its legal cos the FIA cant figure out whats going on. They have some special stuff in their carbon fibre. The F duct was banned, so was the double diffuser. Only reason this is allowed to continue another year is the FIA cant figure it out. Lets hope McLaren can.
By vaptin
#248110
Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 (in addition to minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- must comply with the rules relating to bodywork ;
- must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom) ;
- must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.
No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.


So, all well and good right? No... because that rule is so god damn vague that it is completely unenforcable with that wording alone. This is where the load tests come in, to determine a exact and definite point within that immensely grey area where the wing becomes illegal. That, therefore, is the absolute rule that the cars will be designed to, a process involving numbers that allow exact solutions to be engineered under pure logical conditions, rather than vague wording and opinion, as it is the only reasonable thing to do. It's the same process for all other areas of the car, why does the front wing need special treatment?

In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.


Until this happens, that car is legal and that car will retain this advantage. I'd love to hear a good explanation to the contrary other than it being against the spirit of the rules because really such a reason is a bit of a cop out argument (no offence), as it's just opinion.

The only way they can truly enforce this effectively is to have a windtunnel and measure the deflection, but they can't really do that at circuits all over the world. Alternatively they can ramp up the load tests until such a point where it's simply dangerous due to how rigid the wings will be. Not really gonna work either, right? So, i guess spec materials or wings are the only option remaining as far as i can see...


That rule sounds like its asking for no actual flexing, the movement of the front wing, must be the same as the "sprung part of the car". The wing can flex all it wants relative to the ground, as long as the sprung part of the car moves in the same way. That works fine in the tests, but downforce on a track would be quite different surely. It probably applies to all teams, maybe redbull are just using the air better.
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