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[Denthúl]

The fact that Vettel went around the outside meant that he had to travel further to get around Button. You cannot compare this too Button, who actually cut the corner.

Also consider that Vettel's racing line is severely compromised at turn 5, and on the lead up to turn 6. He did not gain an advantage.

i think with button's incident, it didnt help that you have a bunch of clowns in Race controls, not getting back to mclaren straight away, but then it was kind of coming what happened, but vettel didnt certainly get away with one there

Call them clowns all you want, it was pretty obvious that he had gained the position unfairly.

More gravel/walls please. Then all of this bickering wouldn't take place.

[Peng]

And who knows. Maybe Vettel might have actually listened to the stewards and not argued with them over giving the place back.

Listened to the stewards???? Do you mean race control? There was nothing to listen to. They didnt reply to McLaren they just gave a penalty. So there was no arguing.

Now if what you mean is -Vettel may have realised his error and given back the place...Oh but hang on..he didnt realise his error and give back the pace

But had he, Lewis would have got out ahead of him at his pit stop.

Really? I thought race control contacted Mclaren to say that he needed to give the place back, hence the radio conversation in which button claimed to be ahead before cutting the track.
Either way there it suggests that there was doubt in Mclaren, or at least Button that the move was legal.

On the other hand in Vettel's move no one even lifted a finger.

And they obviously have a better grasp of the rules than we do...

The stewards didn't reply to Mclaren at all until the message appeared about the incident being investigated at which point it was too late anyway since i think Massa had already pitted or was atleast 7-8 seconds behind Button anyway.

I am a Button fan but can quite clearly say anyone defending him is an idiot, he made a mistake and instead of keeping cool calm and thinking it through like he normally does he let his frustration from the previous few laps cloud his mind and just didn't think, it was a silly mistake by him and most likely cost him a podium but it was 100% his fault.

But on the other hand what Vettel did was very similar so its surprising that no one seemed to even care.

Since i am from the UK i was watching the BBC commentary and when Buemi did the exact same move Coulthard commented saying it was illegal and even Brundle pointed out Vettel did the same thing in which Coulthard replied that Vettel didn't have all 4 wheels off track which he quite clearly did.

No clue where i can go to read the exact rules for 2011 but i am pretty sure there is a rule which forbids leaving the track to maintain momentum in order to maintain an advantage, which is exactly what Vettel did.

Doesn't make a difference if he was ahead before the corner and doesn't matter if he was only slightly off the track, if there was a wall, grass, gravel etc at that point of the track like there should be he would have not have made the overtake stick so he maintained an advantage by leaving the track.

As i said previously though i highly doubt it would have changed the results of the race but you never know when it comes to F1.

[Gaz]

Thread Merge FAILURE

[FRAFPDD]

Then why wasn't he bitchslapped by the almighty stewards for being such a naughty boy? Must be a conspiracy, I'll get my tinfoil hat.

Always the occasional posters that make the most sense, always.


Vettel extended the racetrack, button shortened it. The mere fact Vettels overtake isnt even being discussed by the f1 circle, is awfull telling in how legal it actually was.

I dont care if what Vettel did was go faster then he could of to overtake, if the rules say he can do it if its extending the racetrack, then hes allowed. Kudos to him for knowing the rules. No-Kudos for Button who was so foolish to think he would somehow get away with it?!

[bud]

Always the occasional posters that make the most sense, always.

Coming from a regular poster that statement doesn't make sense thus null and void

Since i am from the UK i was watching the BBC commentary and when Buemi did the exact same move Coulthard commented saying it was illegal and even Brundle pointed out Vettel did the same thing in which Coulthard replied that Vettel didn't have all 4 wheels off track which he quite clearly did.

No clue where i can go to read the exact rules for 2011 but i am pretty sure there is a rule which forbids leaving the track to maintain momentum in order to maintain an advantage, which is exactly what Vettel did.

Doesn't make a difference if he was ahead before the corner and doesn't matter if he was only slightly off the track, if there was a wall, grass, gravel etc at that point of the track like there should be he would have not have made the overtake stick so he maintained an advantage by leaving the track.

As i said previously though i highly doubt it would have changed the results of the race but you never know when it comes to F1.

that corner in question where Vettel went off many cars used that line going deep off track It actually slows you down for the next corner, its not an advantage. If they punished Vettel for going off track then they would have to punish half the field.

[Gaz]

The fact that Vettel went around the outside meant that he had to travel further to get around Button. You cannot compare this too Button, who actually cut the corner.

Also consider that Vettel's racing line is severely compromised at turn 5, and on the lead up to turn 6. He did not gain an advantage.

i think with button's incident, it didnt help that you have a bunch of clowns in Race controls, not getting back to mclaren straight away, but then it was kind of coming what happened, but vettel didnt certainly get away with one there

Call them clowns all you want, it was pretty obvious that he had gained the position unfairly.

More gravel/walls please. Then all of this bickering wouldn't take place.

To be fair i'm upset he wasn't given a penlaty but i'm glad there wasn't a wall or gravel because vettle would of no doubt monged up and taken out Jenson again like spa.

So we know Vettel can over take but he is still very s*** at it.

I wonder if hes on the motorway driving on a 3 lane highway if hes in the left lane and wants to over take does he cross the middle lane going right into the far right hand lane to overtake to avoid towing into the side of the car he's trying to overtake just to be sure.

[FRAFPDD]

Always the occasional posters that make the most sense, always.

Coming from a regular poster that statement doesn't make sense thus null and void

Since i am from the UK i was watching the BBC commentary and when Buemi did the exact same move Coulthard commented saying it was illegal and even Brundle pointed out Vettel did the same thing in which Coulthard replied that Vettel didn't have all 4 wheels off track which he quite clearly did.

No clue where i can go to read the exact rules for 2011 but i am pretty sure there is a rule which forbids leaving the track to maintain momentum in order to maintain an advantage, which is exactly what Vettel did.

Doesn't make a difference if he was ahead before the corner and doesn't matter if he was only slightly off the track, if there was a wall, grass, gravel etc at that point of the track like there should be he would have not have made the overtake stick so he maintained an advantage by leaving the track.

As i said previously though i highly doubt it would have changed the results of the race but you never know when it comes to F1.

that corner in question where Vettel went off many cars used that line going deep off track It actually slows you down for the next corner, its not an advantage. If they punished Vettel for going off track then they would have to punish half the field.

LOL i noticed that the moment i posted, the irony of talking sense as a regular poster. I was hoping nobody would notice.............

[Gaz]

Can't remember who posted it, but I recall someone saying Ferrari used "dirty tricks" (or words to that effect) by pitting Massa before Jenson gave the position back.

Just can't let a silly statement like that go. To try and blame Ferrari for, what ended out being a poor team call is ridiculous.

For the record, Massa stayed out for over 2 laps after the incident. When McLaren knew Ferrari were going to pit (the tyres came out early in fact) they still had plenty of time to tell Jenson to let Felipe back past before he got to the pit lane entry.

Also, McLaren had the experience of exactly the same thing happening to Ferrari in 2010 at Silverstone in the Alonso/Kubica incident. Exactly the same thing, Ferrari were communicating with the Stewards and waiting for an answer (which never came) and then got penalised.

And for the record, I think all these penalties for going off track are rubbish. If we want to improve overtakes and excitement then who cares about going off track - just make the circuit punish the driver/car. Lots more kitty-litter and well positioned kerbs will do the trick. Then lets get back to this, it will do heaps more for F1 than any amount of gimmicks!
[youtube]kl2tIFxSEGA[/youtube]

It was me, i wasn't blaming Ferrari for the stewards decicion silly!

I was suggesting Ferrari made it more difficult for Jenson to just give back the place because they swapped Massa and Alonso a corner and a half later.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Some rules are enforced to the letter while the spirit of others is enforced. Only the spirit of SR 20.3 is enforced, never the letter. The "spirit" of SR 20.3 is to prevent "cheating" by cutting the circuit short (and to preserve the safety of competitors). Leaving the track per se is not "cheating." It only rises to the level of "cheating" if and when a driver leaves the track to shorten his lap, e.g. "cutting" a corner.

F1 drivers leave the track quite frequently without penalty. They leave the track when they pit, do they not? Neither are they penalised if they overcook a corner and run wide of the tarmac (unless they gather up another car in the process). That's because the act of running off the track does not in itself unfairly advantage the given driver.

The "maintaining momentum" argument is a red herring because a driver running wide of a corner is increasing the length of his lap and leaving the entire width of the circuit to his competitor's disposal. If the competitor's pace were sufficient to execute an overtaking manoeuver, there would be nothing impeding him.

"SR 20) DRIVING ...
...20.3 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. Should a car leave the track for any reason the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage."

[McLaren]

Well I have to say even with my McLaren tinted glasses on I thought the stewards got it spot on in both cases.For Jenson not to give the place back for me was silly(teams fault as much as his).As for Seb's overtake if you didn't allow things like that you might as well not be racing.

[Peng]

that corner in question where Vettel went off many cars used that line going deep off track It actually slows you down for the next corner, its not an advantage. If they punished Vettel for going off track then they would have to punish half the field.

It isn't an advantage when you want to post a fast lap time (even though you would lose an extremely small amount of time)but it definitely was an advantage for Vettel for overtaking, he was able to carry a much higher momentum into the corner allowing him to maintain his position in front of Button even though his car had to travel a further distance and even though he had to take turn 5 slightly slower, he even cut in front of Button again before turn 5 and took turn 5 at a decent pace so he didn't exactly lose much if any time from going wide.

But my point has nothing to do with just going off the track is has to do with the fact Vettel maintained an advantage by lengthening the track, as i said if it wasn't for the fact there was tarmac there he wouldn't have made that overtake stick.

Again though i seriously doubt it would have affected the outcome of the race but the stewards cant punish certain incidents of rule breaking and ignore others.

[Jensonb]

Then why wasn't he bitchslapped by the almighty stewards for being such a naughty boy? Must be a conspiracy, I'll get my tinfoil hat.

Always the occasional posters that make the most sense, always.


Vettel extended the racetrack, button shortened it. The mere fact Vettels overtake isnt even being discussed by the f1 circle, is awfull telling in how legal it actually was

That's cute, you've redefined the rule to suit your argument.

Go read it, it's crystal clear: If Button broke it so did Vettel and Buemi.

[f1ea]

Well I have to say even with my McLaren tinted glasses on I thought the stewards got it spot on in both cases.For Jenson not to give the place back for me was silly(teams fault as much as his).As for Seb's overtake if you didn't allow things like that you might as well not be racing.

Jenson cut the corner blatantly during the overtake. he was obviously frustrated with Massa.

Vettel went wide after the overtake... which makes it grey, something like when drives go wide like that while defending, this only gets a warning after a couple of similar episodes.

Button should have given the place back right away. Vettel should have waited for a stewards/team instruction, which never came... so no probs he said.

[FRAFPDD]

Then why wasn't he bitchslapped by the almighty stewards for being such a naughty boy? Must be a conspiracy, I'll get my tinfoil hat.

Always the occasional posters that make the most sense, always.


Vettel extended the racetrack, button shortened it. The mere fact Vettels overtake isnt even being discussed by the f1 circle, is awfull telling in how legal it actually was

That's cute, you've redefined the rule to suit your argument.

Go read it, it's crystal clear: If Button broke it so did Vettel and Buemi.

Im not replying to you in future until you act your age. So dont expect a reply from me hereafter.

[myownalias]

I feel that the FIA need absolute rules instead of these rules that are decided on the opinion of a stewards enquiry. I have no issue with Jenson's penalty; that is very clear cut but I also believe that Vettel maintained an advantage by leaving the confines of the track; if he stayed within the confines of the track he wouldn't have been able to maintain that advantage in my opinion.

ADDITIONAL: in the rules it mentions leaving the confines of the defined track, e.g. between the white lines (or yellow in this case); regardless of whether it's the inside or outside of the corner.