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[mnmracer]

[1Lemon]

Button has first-hand experience of duelling with a team-mate when he went head-to-head with Lewis Hamilton in Turkey in 2010.

Ironically, Vettel and Webber had already taken each other out of the race when they collided.

And then Button leapfrogged Hamilton late on — although he was unaware his team-mate was told to save fuel.

The two buried the hatchet after the misunderstanding but Button believes the latest case with the two Red Bulls is a different matter altogether.

He added: “Lewis and myself had something like that in Turkey. He was told to turn his engine down but I didn’t know.

“Lewis thought they had told me, so then I overtook him and then Lewis overtook me.

“As soon as we got out of the car we discussed it and when I said that I wasn’t told anything, it was all fine.

Facts are an amasing thing when you omit half the story!

Bizarre that they didn't think to mention it to Jenson!

Maybe they didn't think it was necessary.

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

[CookinFlat6]

Well the guy who can tell us is Lewis, and his face on the podium said it all. I would not be surprised if that was the point he decided it was over with the team.

Who can believe Button anyway, when he promised us to quit if team orders were brought back, and now says 'you must obey team orders, its not good'

[mnmracer]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

[1Lemon]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

[mnmracer]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

So aside from breaking the teamorder, which is apparently not the issue, what is your/people's beef with Vettel?

[1Lemon]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

So aside from breaking the teamorder, which is apparently not the issue, what is your/people's beef with Vettel?

that's exactly the issue, his win at all costs attitude endangered a one two win and has potentially cracked the team internally.

[mnmracer]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

So aside from breaking the teamorder, which is apparently not the issue, what is your/people's beef with Vettel?

that's exactly the issue, his win at all costs attitude endangered a one two win and has potentially cracked the team internally.

You said "except the order not to overtake".
Take your pick already.

Mark Webber endangered a two-three finish.
Mark Webber TWICE endangered a world driver's championship.
Neither of those have 'cracked the team internally' (to this extend).

[LRW]

This is boring now. Can you lot just agree to disagree.

I'm sure there are rules about repetitive drivel on this forum.....?

[1Lemon]

And Mnmracer, all these team order situations are all completely different at the bare bones of them, the only reason people keep bringing them up is because they have team orders in them. Also I did notice how you keep not mentioning Istanbul 2010, which is the closest situation to the one we find ourselves in.

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

So aside from breaking the teamorder, which is apparently not the issue, what is your/people's beef with Vettel?

that's exactly the issue, his win at all costs attitude endangered a one two win and has potentially cracked the team internally.

You said "except the order not to overtake".
Take your pick already.

Mark Webber endangered a two-three finish.
Mark Webber TWICE endangered a world driver's championship.
Neither of those have 'cracked the team internally' (to this extend).

Ok well I accept sarcasm does not translate well via text, but I was sarcastic when I said "Except the order not to overtake"

But again you're ignoring Istanbul, TWICE Vettle has endangered a one-two finish, and there were no orders in place that could have stopped Webber.

And in terms of these first lap incidents you keep talking about, it is very hard to A) even how what car is next to you when you have half a second to have a quick glance in your mirror, and B) it would be very hard to deliberately block someone whilst defending a position from a third party (Brazil), but this seems much worse, Vettle was told not to pass, he tried for a few laps then told to stop by the pit wall (Admittedly "This is silly now, Seb" isn't a very harsh wording) but he ignored that warning too and still attacked with everything he's got, that's the issue here. Ignoring multiple team orders and warnings from your own team and risking a big points haul shows signs of someone with the red mist, or a very immature driver.

[Hammer278]

This is boring now. Can you lot just agree to disagree.

I'm sure there are rules about repetitive drivel on this forum.....?

If there are a couple of guys having a discussion, what's the matter with it? I'm following it, they both have good points, if you're bored do something else mate.

[LRW]

This is boring now. Can you lot just agree to disagree.

I'm sure there are rules about repetitive drivel on this forum.....?

If there are a couple of guys having a discussion, what's the matter with it? I'm following it, they both have good points, if you're bored do something else mate.

But they are not having a discussion, they are just repeating the same argument and counter-argument. And that's not interesting in the least....

[mnmracer]

Wait, what?
An accident between two drivers, where no teamorders were in place, is closer to this situation then 3 previous situations where Mark disobeyed teamorders, two of which Webber proudly announced his disobedience to the world and two that could have cost Vettel the WDC (not just the win)?

except the order not to overtake Webber, aside from that one.

So aside from breaking the teamorder, which is apparently not the issue, what is your/people's beef with Vettel?

that's exactly the issue, his win at all costs attitude endangered a one two win and has potentially cracked the team internally.

You said "except the order not to overtake".
Take your pick already.

Mark Webber endangered a two-three finish.
Mark Webber TWICE endangered a world driver's championship.
Neither of those have 'cracked the team internally' (to this extend).

Ok well I accept sarcasm does not translate well via text, but I was sarcastic when I said "Except the order not to overtake"

But again you're ignoring Istanbul, TWICE Vettle has endangered a one-two finish, and there were no orders in place that could have stopped Webber.

And in terms of these first lap incidents you keep talking about, it is very hard to A) even how what car is next to you when you have half a second to have a quick glance in your mirror, and B) it would be very hard to deliberately block someone whilst defending a position from a third party (Brazil), but this seems much worse, Vettle was told not to pass, he tried for a few laps then told to stop by the pit wall (Admittedly "This is silly now, Seb" isn't a very harsh wording) but he ignored that warning too and still attacked with everything he's got, that's the issue here. Ignoring multiple team orders and warnings from your own team and risking a big points haul shows signs of someone with the red mist, or a very immature driver.

So you believe
[*]Vettel TWICE endangering a one-two finish
weighs heavier then
[*]Webber endangering a two-three finish, a podium finish to go to the WCC, and TWICE times endangering a world championship, with the willingness for a third (Abu Dhabi, Brazil start, Brazil later in the race)

Brazil was not only the start. Even if you feel it is totally justified for Webber to jump out of the way of the Ferrari, and squeeze Vettel while there is plenty of room, later in the race when Vettel was coming up and Red Bull telling him to let him pass, Webber was not willing to comply. He did in the end, but again he showed to be a very poor team player.

[mnmracer]

This is boring now. Can you lot just agree to disagree.

I'm sure there are rules about repetitive drivel on this forum.....?

If there are a couple of guys having a discussion, what's the matter with it? I'm following it, they both have good points, if you're bored do something else mate.

But they are not having a discussion, they are just repeating the same argument and counter-argument. And that's not interesting in the least....

If you don't find this entertaining, you can always go watch a race where the fight for the win is forbidden before half-way through the race and the last 15 laps are a progression for the first 4 places.

[1Lemon]

Webber was not willing to comply. He did in the end, but again he showed to be a very poor team player.

(Resetting the monster quote form)

And there lies one of the problems here, he did move, that's a mature thing to do, even though he did delay him; you can't expect someone to just drive straight off the track. However I struggle to think that Vettle would do any differently.