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[f1ea]

What if Webber had given way? What if he clearly had moved over to allow Vettel to pass? Would we now be on the 29th page of a thread arguing whether the stewards were right in penalising RBR for practising team orders?

I dunno, Two cars fighting for position are often slower and there are times when a driver'll be told to let a car from another team pass without a fight when it's likely that it'll get past at some point before the end of the race anyway so it doesn't lose time to other cars just behind. The decision by Red Bull could've been made to maximize their chances at a 1-2 finish and maybe even have been an advantage for Webber, if that's true about Webbers engineer then I think that's a pretty poor show by him, yeah he was sticking up for Webber but they have to work as a team.

Its VERY different to have your teammate concede his positions because he is "the new face of F1", but if there are team, race and championship issue at play. i see no problem in having stuff worked out for the benefit of the team.

With Webber slowing Vettel down, it put Vettel in the position of Lewis challenging him and maybe even passing both vettel and then Webber (as he was on 'limp' mode) for the win. That would have been the most embarrassing defeat of the season.

What's the purpose of having teams then?

[myownalias]

What's the purpose of having teams then?

If this is going to be the future of F1; then I'd rather not have teams... 26 teams of one driver... not 13 teams of two drivers. Or if there is to be two drivers per team; then the finishing position for the team should be an aggregate of finishing positions if they are to work as a team... I do not agree that F1 is a team sport; it's 26 drivers (24 this year) competing against each other. I see no benefit to allowing Vettel to pass Webber unless they were unequally fuelled and Vettel was able to run the last 20 laps on max fuel mixture which in turn implies that Vettel is being favoured having enough fuel to run at full pace all race long. If they were on the same fuel load, Vettel would have had to turn down his mixture soon after passing Webber meaning the same scenario where the McLaren's could have passed both drivers.

[texasmr2]

This whole debate is getting to the point of blah blah blah. Vettel needed the points more than Webber too stay in the WDC fight and stuffed it for himself, Webber and aswell as his team for WCC points. What if scenario's are rather redundant at this point.

[Denthúl]

New evidence to explain Hamilton's displeasure

Post categories: Formula 1

Andrew Benson | 09:25 UK time, Monday, 7 June 2010

While the fall-out from the crash involving the two Red Bull drivers has understandably dominated the Formula 1 agenda in the days since the Turkish Grand Prix, a potentially just as dangerous flashpoint has been largely ignored.

That is the situation between the two drivers at McLaren, where Lewis Hamilton was clearly less than thrilled after the race despite winning his first grand prix of the season.

"What was going on there?" Hamilton asked his team-mate Jenson Button as they prepared to go on to the podium, in a clear reference to the part of the race when Button overtook Hamilton for the lead - and was passed back at the next corner - despite both drivers being told to save fuel.

Both Mark Hughes and I touched on this in our post-race articles last week, when it appeared that there had been a simple misunderstanding between the drivers and their team.

But new information has since emerged that sheds new light on what happened - and exactly why Hamilton seemed so downbeat.

After the race, Hamilton said he had been given a target lap time to meet to ensure he got to the end, and that it had been too slow. "All of a sudden, Jenson was on my tail," he said.

For his part, Button said that he had been told to save fuel, but not how much, nor how fast to go.

But the official Formula 1 website has now published its edit of the Turkish Grand Prix, and it turns out that Hamilton was not telling the whole story. You can watch it here, although you'll need to register to do so.

In the video, Hamilton can be heard asking his team on the radio after being told he needs to save fuel, and that Button is also doing the same: "Jenson's closing in on me, you guys. If I back off, is Jenson going to pass me or not?"

His engineer replies: "No, Lewis. No."

And yet that is exactly what happened. No wonder Hamilton was upset - although he did his best to keep what was bothering him to himself. One suspects he has been less circumspect with the team in private.

So what was going on?

Quite often, when two drivers from a single team are told to save fuel when they are running one-two, this is code for them to hold position until the end of the race.

Team orders are banned in F1 if they "interfere with competition", as the rule book puts it - but there is nothing to stop a team coming up with a series of coded messages, the meaning of which is clear only to those involved.

So why was Hamilton told Button would not overtake him? Why did Button overtake him?

Did Button not get the message? Did he not understand what he was being told? Did he ignore it? Did McLaren secretly want Button, as their lead driver in the championship, to pass Hamilton and win the race?

I understand that, actually, it was a simple misunderstanding, that the two sides of the garage were not telling their drivers the same thing.

Hamilton's engineers had given him a lap-time target to ensure he got to the end of the race; Button's had told him to save fuel but not given him a target.

Hamilton had been told that Button would not overtake; Button had not been told that he couldn't.

It is also worth mentioning the background to McLaren's wishes not to be seen to interfere with their drivers' ability to race each other - despite Max Mosley no longer being FIA president, they are still paranoid about being jumped on by the governing body at the slightest opportunity, as they believe was the case during the Mosley era.

I'm told Hamilton is not particularly upset about this - although had he not been able to get back past Button, and ended up finishing second behind his team-mate, he certainly would be.

Be that as it may, you can bet Hamilton will have been asking team principal Martin Whitmarsh for an explanation, and some reassurance about what actually had happened.

One thing is abundantly clear - someone wants this information out. In case the viewer is in any doubt about what has been said on the McLaren radio, formula1.com helpfully provide subtitles!

Interestingly, the formula1.com video also features new radio transmissions from Red Bull.

But not, sadly, perhaps the most telling conversation that appears to have happened in their team during that race - that, as Hughes reported in Autosport last week, of team principal Christian Horner telling Mark Webber's race engineer Ciaran Pilbeam to order the Australian to let Sebastian Vettel pass, a message Pilbeam did not pass on.

What is broadcast for the first time, though, is Pilbeam urging Webber to "use your overtake button for a boost on the straight" to help him defend against Vettel on the straight before Turn 12 on the fateful lap 40.

The more that comes out about the Webber-Vettel collision, the more it appears that Red Bull were trying to engineer a win for the German.

There is Horner's order to Pilbeam. I understand this was not passed on because Pilbeam was preoccupied with something else at the time.

Then there is adviser Helmut Marko's insistence after the race that Webber was at fault, when the vast majority of observers pinned most of the blame on Vettel for turning right into Webber when he was still alongside, if nosing ahead.

It also transpires that in the post-race debrief - which Vettel did not attend because he had left the track - Horner, Marko and chief technical officer Adrian Newey "laid into" Webber and Pilbeam. And strong words were said in the other direction, too.

I hear another interesting fact, as well.

Red Bull said after the race that Webber had asked the team to slow Vettel down. But that is not accurate. Having noticed Vettel was quicker than him on the straight, Webber had actually asked whether Vettel was on the same engine settings as him.

I understand the team and Webber will make this clear in Canada this weekend.

Just as at McLaren, there appears to have been an element of confusion and mixed messages involved at Red Bull.

Nevetheless, it does look like Red Bull - who, like McLaren, profess to treat both drivers equally - were keen for Vettel to win? If so, why?

They will argue, I believe, that they wanted to ensure they got a one-two, and that they were in the awkward position of having to fend off two McLarens while also saving fuel to ensure they got to the end.

They will say they believed their best hope of doing so was to have their faster driver on the day - Vettel - lead and pull out a gap, and leave their slower one - Webber - to hold back the McLarens.

But you can argue that this is contrary to the rules forbidding team orders. And you can imagine how that will look to Webber, a man who has long believed the team secretly favoured Vettel and could be forgiven after Turkey for feeling that his concerns have been confirmed.

To add to the intrigue, Red Bull announced on Monday that Webber had signed a new contract with the team and will partner Vettel again in 2011.

This, we can be certain, is far from the last we have heard of either of these issues.

Hmm...

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

So long as teams have two cars but only one pit box, forbidding team orders is a farce.

[racechick]

Hmmm indeed!!

[ivey]

By securing a one-two with Hamilton being first, are McLaren favoring Lewis? I say no

[cap-dude]

I was thinking. What if we just banned radio chatter.

Moto GP do it, and they've got no issues with it. It would remove any sense of a race being manfactuered.

[bmwpower]

I was thinking. What if we just banned radio chatter.

Moto GP do it, and they've got no issues with it. It would remove any sense of a race being manfactuered.

No kidding, just race like real men, no begging your team to let the other driver not to pass, just race your race and if you are really good like you think you are then prove it. What we saw at Turkey was a couple of gutless drivers from both Red Bull and McLaren asking their teams, well more like demanding from their team that "if you want me to do this then he needs to do this". Don't drivers listen to their race directors anymore? These guys are on the pitwall with all the datas and info not only about the race but about your car so they have all the necessary info and scenerios, I say cut the radio if they think they are so good and let them race and decide on their own strategy.

[bmwpower]

I have always maintained that F1 is about racing, whether it be your team mate or another team's driver, it's not synchronised driving, if team mates are not allowed to race each other, what's the point of racing at all? The team should be able to pick drivers that are hard but fair and allow them to race. The only time I agree one driver should be allowed to pass another is if one driver is so far behind in the championship race that they can not win the championship.

If team orders are banned from F1; then after this revelation; Red Bull should be fined, excluded from the race or at minimum docked points.

But isn't this the whole point of the debate, what we saw at Turkey wasn't team order, we saw Vettel racing Webber eventually crashing out. Most people's point is that if you are .4 seconds slower the previous two laps and another .1 slower after turning down your fuel mixture, give your teammate a good fight but clean fight with enough room, LH gave Button plenty of room, yes they touched slightly but he still gave him room eventhough LH was suprised that Button made a move after being told he wasn't.

[myownalias]

I have always maintained that F1 is about racing, whether it be your team mate or another team's driver, it's not synchronised driving, if team mates are not allowed to race each other, what's the point of racing at all? The team should be able to pick drivers that are hard but fair and allow them to race. The only time I agree one driver should be allowed to pass another is if one driver is so far behind in the championship race that they can not win the championship.

If team orders are banned from F1; then after this revelation; Red Bull should be fined, excluded from the race or at minimum docked points.

But isn't this the whole point of the debate, what we saw at Turkey wasn't team order, we saw Vettel racing Webber eventually crashing out. Most people's point is that if you are .4 seconds slower the previous two laps and another .1 slower after turning down your fuel mixture, give your teammate a good fight but clean fight with enough room, LH gave Button plenty of room, yes they touched slightly but he still gave him room eventhough LH was suprised that Button made a move after being told he wasn't.

How can you categorically say it wasn't team orders?... Horner may not said that he ordered Webber to move over in so many words but you have to read between the lines. And why would Mark Webber suggest in the post race interviews that the press should dig deeper into why he and Vettel collided?

[bmwpower]

I have always maintained that F1 is about racing, whether it be your team mate or another team's driver, it's not synchronised driving, if team mates are not allowed to race each other, what's the point of racing at all? The team should be able to pick drivers that are hard but fair and allow them to race. The only time I agree one driver should be allowed to pass another is if one driver is so far behind in the championship race that they can not win the championship.

If team orders are banned from F1; then after this revelation; Red Bull should be fined, excluded from the race or at minimum docked points.

But isn't this the whole point of the debate, what we saw at Turkey wasn't team order, we saw Vettel racing Webber eventually crashing out. Most people's point is that if you are .4 seconds slower the previous two laps and another .1 slower after turning down your fuel mixture, give your teammate a good fight but clean fight with enough room, LH gave Button plenty of room, yes they touched slightly but he still gave him room eventhough LH was suprised that Button made a move after being told he wasn't.

How can you categorically say it wasn't team orders?...Horner may not said that he ordered Webber to move over in so many words but you have to read between the lines. And why would Mark Webber suggest in the post race interviews that the press should dig deeper into why he and Vettel collided?

This is nothing more then speculation and speculation and having prove is too different things. This is nothing more then rumors with no radio transmittions or even seeing Webber attempting to move over, comparing this to Ferrari's famous team order is not even close. Ferrari deliberantly let Micheal win even with Ruben having the faster car, Vettel had the faster car at the end (data don't lie) and its nothing more then racing strategy if Honer decided to let Vettel through so LH doesn't have an advantage. But if you believe that team order existed at the end of Turkey, then why not belly ache over McLaren? Button was told over the radio transmission not to over take LH, they wouldn't allowed to race each other as LH confirmed therefore preserving their order of 1-2. No belly arching with this one?

[bud]

data dont lie so back up your claims BMWpower with some data. I dont recall Vettel making .4 a lap on Webber before he was told to conserve fuel. Remember Vettel pitted before Webber so his tyres would have had more wear from doing a few extra laps so tyre wear would not be a cause.

just seems to me youre a Vettel fan trying to make good of his stuff up that it wasnt his fault

[Dj_polly12]

The thing that I find very interesting about Red Bull not just in Turkey but throughout the last 3 races when Webber has been leading is the pit stops.

After the Oz GP when all drivers came into pit to change to dry tyres, Webber had to complete one extra lap on intermediate tyres because Vettel, who was race leader was given priority by the team, pitted first. After the race in an interview Webber stated that Red Bulls "policy" - if thats what it should be referred to, was to always give their leading driver the first pit stop. In this case Webber went from running a very close second to Vettel to being dropped right down the field which caused a variety of problems for himself and other drivers (but we wont go there!) The same happened at China in the wet weather, Webber was subsequently dropped down the field due to pit stops.

However, what I have noticed is that lately while Webber has been leading races Vettel is still being given the prioity pit stop and the chance to close the gap to Webber while leading. Now I know that race engineers have their reasons for pitting their drivers at different stages depending on track position but it doesn't quite add up that in the 7 races we have had this season, Vettel has always had the first pit stop. Sure it's easy to say that the leading driver will be given the first pit stop when it has been Vettel (IF we are saying he is being preffered over Webber) but its something that has realy been playing on my mind and had done when Red Bull made their stops at Turkey... BEFORE the incident happened...

[Dj_polly12]

data dont lie so back up your claims BMWpower with some data. I dont recall Vettel making .4 a lap on Webber before he was told to conserve fuel. Remember Vettel pitted before Webber so his tyres would have had more wear from doing a few extra laps so tyre wear would not be a cause.

just seems to me youre a Vettel fan trying to make good of his stuff up that it wasnt his fault

Here Here!!