FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[spankyham]

Perhaps I'm still nervous waiting for Mercedes to turn on their 20% more powerful engine

It certainly appears to be 20% more reliable.

Mercedes engines ran more laps, that's for sure. There were no Ferrari engine or engine component failures at Jerez (using the rules for racing this year no Ferrari team would have had an engine penalty or lost an engine) which is positive. How about Mercedes?

[spankyham]

Do you think Ferrari were sandbagging by not doing a full race sim? You mentioned that they hadnt put their full aero package on yet, do you think they might try a full race sim first?

No, I don't think they were sandbagging. I just think they are running a different testing program to Mercedes. Ferrari were focused on getting the mechanical side sorted out and finding if there were any major concerns that needed to be addressed there. I think they have something different in the cooling side and they probably wanted to be sure they had that exactly right also. As well as those items, I think they were quite concerned to validate their wind-tunnel data. That probably explains their aero config.

Bahrain will see the car running close to max power (around to 12K revs I'm guessing) and perhaps allowing close to the rev limit. I'd also expect to see something closer to their intended aero package, wings, pods and other bodywork. Perhaps more airbox intake somewhere as they seek to ramp up engine power???

[What's Burning?]

Perhaps I'm still nervous waiting for Mercedes to turn on their 20% more powerful engine

It certainly appears to be 20% more reliable.

Mercedes engines ran more laps, that's for sure. There were no Ferrari engine or engine component failures at Jerez (using the rules for racing this year no Ferrari team would have had an engine penalty or lost an engine) which is positive. How about Mercedes?

I like your optimism, I also like your assessment of the Jerez testing. Merc in the driver's seat.

[Hammer278]

Perhaps I'm still nervous waiting for Mercedes to turn on their 20% more powerful engine

It certainly appears to be 20% more reliable.

Mercedes engines ran more laps, that's for sure. There were no Ferrari engine or engine component failures at Jerez (using the rules for racing this year no Ferrari team would have had an engine penalty or lost an engine) which is positive. How about Mercedes?

I recall Kimi stopping on track at least twice and Alonso once or twice...I assume these were more of electronic bugs than serious engine malfunctions, but surely it shows a team which still has some ironing out to do compared to Merc?

[CookinFlat6]

Only Merc have a 2014 racing car thats ready at present

[spankyham]

Perhaps I'm still nervous waiting for Mercedes to turn on their 20% more powerful engine

It certainly appears to be 20% more reliable.

Mercedes engines ran more laps, that's for sure. There were no Ferrari engine or engine component failures at Jerez (using the rules for racing this year no Ferrari team would have had an engine penalty or lost an engine) which is positive. How about Mercedes?

I recall Kimi stopping on track at least twice and Alonso once or twice...I assume these were more of electronic bugs than serious engine malfunctions, but surely it shows a team which still has some ironing out to do compared to Merc?

Ferrari had two engine stops - both down to the same sensor. It had no reading so the engineers shut the engine down. On top of that Kimi had a spin (I think that's one you're referring to).

I recall the Merc engine died as the car was halfway out the garage on the first day, I think Bud mentioned that was the anti-stall though.

As I mentioned there were no Ferrari engine faults that would have resulted in a lost engine component or penalty under the racing regulations.

The only Merc engine stop I don't have an explanation for is the FI one on day-3 I believe. I'd like to know what that one was for.

[racechick]

Here is some analysis of the test from Sky.

Spanky I know you don't care for the views of the judge, I don't agree with all his views but I find he gets info out there earlier than others and isn't afraid of saying things as he sees them. I like his site.
Anyway this is the sky summary of how they saw the week.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/22058 ... t-at-jerez

[spankyham]

The emperor's new cloths...
Perhaps the solution is a few more caps and limits, some extra rules and above all lets make it cheap to get entries from Kia and Bajaj

 wrote:">Formula 1 - 'Just too slow': Drivers' damning verdict on new F1 cars

Formula 1 drivers think that the new generation of cars are too slow at the moment, even if they are still hugely challenging to drive.



The first experience of the turbo V6 machines at Jerez last week showed that although the new engines are still delivering plenty of horsepower, they are lacking in cornering speed.

The best lap time of the test - set by Kevin Magnussen - was eight seconds off the best ever lap time set in testing at the Spanish track by Michael Schumacher back in 2004.

F1's new engine rules were described as "completely unnecessary nonsense" by Bernie Ecclestone last week, and the dissenting voices have now grown louder as drivers complain about a speed deficit which they feel will rob F1 of its sparkle.

Sauber's Adrian Sutil said: "We have lost downforce, around 20-30 per cent from last year, and now also the tyres are one step harder. It makes it more difficult all the time.

"It is a shame because F1 is a bit too slow at the moment. From the engine side it is very powerful, so we are not down on the power side, it is nice to drive and nice to have a turbocharger.

"But from the aerodynamics, I think we have to step up a little bit, because F1 should also be quick in the corners.

"And the tyres are just too hard. I don't understand why they have to be so conservative. I think we can at least have a tyre with decent grip situation."

Fernando Alonso reckoned that the slower speeds meant the new 2014 cars were less of a physical challenge to drive, but denied they were boring.

"It's not the same from a physical point of view," he said. "These cars are easier than Formula 1 has been.

"The forces and speed are less in the corners, but on the other hand there are more parameters to control, more buttons on the steering wheel.

"There is more criticality in terms of driving and having control of the car in high-speed corners and with traction. It's just different.

"I've driven karts that are half a minute slower than F1 and I still sweated and enjoyed driving.

"As long as you are driving at the limit, the lap time you do, it doesn't change the emotional point of view. This car is still fun to drive."

Williams driver Felipe Massa admitted that the lower speed was noticeable in the cockpit, but suggested that because the cars are so tricky, the driving is still exciting.

"The car is much slower than last year," explained the Brazilian. "When you drive on the limit you're trying to use everything from the car, so when the car is difficult to drive it doesn't feel so slow, it feels difficult.

"But when it's easy and grippy, to drive it feels slow even if you have a much quicker lap time."

Sutil thinks, however, that the situation would improve dramatically over the course of the campaign so things would be much better in 2015.

"I think you have seen over many years with new regulations from the car, that once it gets going, they pick up seconds every months or two months as the car improves," he said.

"So I expect at least four seconds between the end of the season and to the new car for 2015. There will be a huge step and hopefully F1 will be fast enough again."

Jerez has hosted pre-season tests for all bar one year since 1999 - which provides an interesting comparison for the relative speed of the 2014 Formula 1 cars.

Looking at the best times from the first of the pre-season tests that took place each season at Jerez, it is clear that the current generation of cars are much slower than they have been in recent years.

However, the speeds shown last week are not too dissimilar to how F1 was in the early 2000s.

[What's Burning?]

I read that yesterday, Yahoo is using an idiotic headline given the statements by Alonso that speed alone isn't what makes for exciting racing. It's also not fair to compare the speeds during Jerez testing when we know that they werent pushing at 100%. Perhaps a comparison can be made in the third year of the life of these new era turbo engines but it's pretty idiotic to compare them to the speed of a V10. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Might as well say that race cars today are too reliable and we don't have the excitement that existed a decade or two back when cars would routinely not finish a race.

[spankyham]

I read that yesterday, Yahoo is using an idiotic headline given the statements by Alonso that speed alone isn't what makes for exciting racing. It's also not fair to compare the speeds during Jerez testing when we know that they werent pushing at 100%. Perhaps a comparison can be made in the third year of the life of these new era turbo engines but it's pretty idiotic to compare them to the speed of a V10. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

Might as well say that race cars today are too reliable and we don't have the excitement that existed a decade or two back when cars would routinely not finish a race.

I hope you are right - that the performance we saw was a result of teams simply not pushing.

I fear we will have yet another step backward in performance. And, I'm sorry to say that is not where F1 should be and it is IMO in the opposite direction of where it should be heading.

[NHcheese]

We need very fast cars. to claw back the magic lost in F1. But FIA think safety wins fans. seriously. At least make speed machines. Why would anyone watch F1 now. There is no danger, so why not make faster cars.


WE WANT POWER. THROW AWAY V6'S AND PUT W16'S IN THEM.

[Roth]

If the drivers are saying they are more challenging to drive then can we assume the difference in natural talent will come to the fore and offer up more rewarding races that way. A shift towards giving the drivers more input is a good thing surely. With speeds being similar to that of 2000, when nobody complained about lack of pace and most people only watching on TV where raw pace is hard to judge anyway, I don't see them being slower as an issue. If it's power not aero related and teams sharing engines then there won't be the situaution of one team riding off into the distance because they've harnessed the regs better.

They haven't even turned a wheel in anger yet and everyone wants the rules changed; rules put in place to get away from the snoozy RBR domination. Never happy, some people.

[NHcheese]

Lotus will be hit hard. No running time in the car for the drivers. Can't test the cars performance. And they are using Renault engines. Bad news.

Maybe williams will take lotus' place as a top team.

[CookinFlat6]

Lotus and RBR are in pretty much the same boat - their testing starts in Bharain. RBRs only laps were in a non legal for 2014 car. And where only to save face and get some laps in. More like a PR event.
The car they will have bring will be different to that car
Their packaging just doesnt work, the car couldnt do a few corners without over heating. RBR are now where Merc and Ferrari were at least a month before Jerez
And this time they are having to design a car around a power unit, a power unit that is likely to change a bit itself at the same time

[Hammer278]

If the drivers are saying they are more challenging to drive then can we assume the difference in natural talent will come to the fore and offer up more rewarding races that way. A shift towards giving the drivers more input is a good thing surely. With speeds being similar to that of 2000, when nobody complained about lack of pace and most people only watching on TV where raw pace is hard to judge anyway, I don't see them being slower as an issue. If it's power not aero related and teams sharing engines then there won't be the situaution of one team riding off into the distance because they've harnessed the regs better.

They haven't even turned a wheel in anger yet and everyone wants the rules changed; rules put in place to get away from the snoozy RBR domination. Never happy, some people.

My thoughts exactly. Looking at the history in which F1 gains speed, I'm sure they'd be kicking the lower divisions a$$ like GP2 or whatever in no time. Just give them half a year to get their development up to speed...and like you said if the drivers state that skill is still very much involved, I don't see a problem.