FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

Formula One related discussion.
#172002
Heh, i concur - does wanting to retire the car in Germany just because he was a lap down, dropping it from a podium spot on the last lap or spinning multiple times in China sound like the actions of driver of the year? Go figure... Button literally dominated when the car was the best and once Red Bull overtook them (and other teams caught up/overtook them too) he pulled off a brilliant display of damage limitation - his only non-points finish was when he was punted off at Spa! I can't even recalled him making any real mistakes, and i'm pretty damn sure he's the only driver who could make that claim this season.


:yes:
#172004
Ive decided I much prefer mark Hughes ranking over the team bosses, it goes thus
1 Hamilton :D (as soon as the car could perform he was consistently brilliant- Monza showed still capable of mistakes)
2 Button (Very effective when car was superior, but with a less competitive car, he dropped and lost consistency)

Uhm...Not to put too fine a point on it, but the justification for Button being below Hamilton is that he wasn't good enough when the car was poor....But the explanation for Hamilton being top is that he was good once the car improved...

Um...What?


They weren't my justifications, I was precising Hughes. However,the Brawn was never the dog the mcLaren was and the McLaren was never the jewel the in the second half when Jenson was loosing it.
#172020
Ive decided I much prefer mark Hughes ranking over the team bosses, it goes thus
1 Hamilton :D (as soon as the car could perform he was consistently brilliant- Monza showed still capable of mistakes)
2 Button (Very effective when car was superior, but with a less competitive car, he dropped and lost consistency)

Uhm...Not to put too fine a point on it, but the justification for Button being below Hamilton is that he wasn't good enough when the car was poor....But the explanation for Hamilton being top is that he was good once the car improved...

Um...What?


They weren't my justifications, I was precising Hughes. However,the Brawn was never the dog the mcLaren was and the McLaren was never the jewel the in the second half when Jenson was loosing it.

I wasn't saying they were. But stop acting like the McLaren in the first half of the season was a piece of trash. It was mediocre, hardly a dog. It was scoring points - and it was very rapid in Monaco. It may have been a dog pre-season, but they'd already recovered some ground by Australia. Button, when the car was poor, consistently wrung points finishes out of it. The two explanations Hughes has given are patently contradictory. When Hamilton's car wasn't up to snuff, he spent one race spinning off the track every dozen laps or so.
#172031
Hm, interesting how this thread has turned into a JB lovefest... :twisted:

I think JB did a good job this season, not a brilliant one, but solid w/o any major mistakes to speak of. So, did he 'deserve' the title? An emphatic yes! Did he show to be THE top driver of the year? Probably not.
#172032
Hm, interesting how this thread has turned into a JB lovefest... :twisted:

I think JB did a good job this season, not a brilliant one, but solid w/o any major mistakes to speak of. So, did he 'deserve' the title? An emphatic yes! Did he show to be THE top driver of the year? Probably not.


Go on then, who do you think it should be?
#172034
Hm, interesting how this thread has turned into a JB lovefest... :twisted:

I think JB did a good job this season, not a brilliant one, but solid w/o any major mistakes to speak of. So, did he 'deserve' the title? An emphatic yes! Did he show to be THE top driver of the year? Probably not.


Go on then, who do you think it should be?


I probably opt for SV. Consistently good results, showing his teammate off, unfortunately some mistakes/dnfs that cost him the title. But he's young and will have learned a huge amount during his first season as a title challenger, so next year he'll be a force to be reckoned with (if the car is any good).
#172116
Ive decided I much prefer mark Hughes ranking over the team bosses, it goes thus
1 Hamilton :D (as soon as the car could perform he was consistently brilliant- Monza showed still capable of mistakes)
2 Button (Very effective when car was superior, but with a less competitive car, he dropped and lost consistency)

Uhm...Not to put too fine a point on it, but the justification for Button being below Hamilton is that he wasn't good enough when the car was poor....But the explanation for Hamilton being top is that he was good once the car improved...

Um...What?


They weren't my justifications, I was precising Hughes. However,the Brawn was never the dog the mcLaren was and the McLaren was never the jewel the in the second half when Jenson was loosing it.

I wasn't saying they were. But stop acting like the McLaren in the first half of the season was a piece of trash. It was mediocre, hardly a dog. It was scoring points - and it was very rapid in Monaco. It may have been a dog pre-season, but they'd already recovered some ground by Australia. Button, when the car was poor, consistently wrung points finishes out of it. The two explanations Hughes has given are patently contradictory. When Hamilton's car wasn't up to snuff, he spent one race spinning off the track every dozen laps or so.


It was ok at monaco, Hamilton was good, but by trying to wring 110% out of it he went off.
Mediocre? It was plum last at some points in the first half of the season. The only reason it scored points was because hamilton was driving it.
#172118
It was ok at monaco, Hamilton was good, but by trying to wring 110% out of it he went off.
Mediocre? It was plum last at some points in the first half of the season. The only reason it scored points was because hamilton was driving it.

We can argue the quality of that car till the cows come home, but the two explanations Hughes offered are still contradictory.
#172119
It was ok at monaco, Hamilton was good, but by trying to wring 110% out of it he went off.
Mediocre? It was plum last at some points in the first half of the season. The only reason it scored points was because hamilton was driving it.

We can argue the quality of that car till the cows come home, but the two explanations Hughes offered are still contradictory.


Maybe it was me over precising what he said- i didnt want to write a book about it. I'll dig the article out and see if thats the case.But i think the cars relative performances are very relevant. Dropping points in a top car is not the same as not being able to score because the car is incapable. Therein lies the difference .
#172123
It was ok at monaco, Hamilton was good, but by trying to wring 110% out of it he went off.
Mediocre? It was plum last at some points in the first half of the season. The only reason it scored points was because hamilton was driving it.

We can argue the quality of that car till the cows come home, but the two explanations Hughes offered are still contradictory.


Maybe it was me over precising what he said- i didnt want to write a book about it. I'll dig the article out and see if thats the case.But i think the cars relative performances are very relevant. Dropping points in a top car is not the same as not being able to score because the car is incapable. Therein lies the difference .

It's fine to say Hamilton did a better job, it's all about opinions, but the explanation is poor - Button was consistently peerless when the car was good, and consistently did enough when it was less so. I don't see why Hamilton's first half gets written off as irrelevant because the car was not up to snuff, but Jenson gets judged harshly for being merely "okay" when his car was not the best. The two things are basically the same, it's just Button's car at its best and worse was better than Lewis's at it's best and worst respectively, hence JB got the points. And this is a question I have generally for everybody whose criticised the backend of Jenson's season, but praised Hamilton purely because of the backend of his.

Did I sleep through a meeting where it was decided races 1-7 were just practice?
#172125
It was ok at monaco, Hamilton was good, but by trying to wring 110% out of it he went off.
Mediocre? It was plum last at some points in the first half of the season. The only reason it scored points was because hamilton was driving it.

We can argue the quality of that car till the cows come home, but the two explanations Hughes offered are still contradictory.


Maybe it was me over precising what he said- i didnt want to write a book about it. I'll dig the article out and see if thats the case.But i think the cars relative performances are very relevant. Dropping points in a top car is not the same as not being able to score because the car is incapable. Therein lies the difference .

It's fine to say Hamilton did a better job, it's all about opinions, but the explanation is poor - Button was consistently peerless when the car was good, and consistently did enough when it was less so. I don't see why Hamilton's first half gets written off as irrelevant because the car was not up to snuff, but Jenson gets judged harshly for being merely "okay" when his car was not the best. The two things are basically the same, it's just Button's car at its best and worse was better than Lewis's at it's best and worst respectively, hence JB got the points. And this is a question I have generally for everybody whose criticised the backend of Jenson's season, but praised Hamilton purely because of the backend of his.

Did I sleep through a meeting where it was decided races 1-7 were just practice?


Jens did great in the first half, no one's saying he didnt , he beat his team mate and got enough of a cushion to keep his lead. He's now world champion and no one can argue with that. But I thibk your arguement is flawed when you compare the two and the relative performances of their cars. Hamiltons first half doesnt actually get written off, he gained respect in that first half for getting the car where it had no right to be, I believe he was praised as much for that as for delivering when the car got in sniffing distance of a win; Jens still had a race winning car in the second half but didnt perform in it. (You can argue he didnt need to and thats a fair arguement).

EDIT: Ok I found the Hughes article, Im sure the discrepency was down to me being too brief when quoting him. Here's what he says(he's actually praising Button highly-he puts him second)

2. Jenson Button

Jenson Button at Monaco © LAT
On the form of his first half-season, he'd be comfortably number one. But his latter half was too often compromised by mediocre qualifying efforts as the pressure of leading the championship began to tell on him. He would invariably then rescue himself with some sparkling race performances and he made some quite stunning passing manoeuvres throughout the season, almost all of them critical in gaining him the required result.

His silky style was devastatingly effective when the Brawn was at its best and several times he seemed to gain access to an elevated level of personal performance – witness his stunning pole lap of Monaco or his savagely relentless stint in Barcelona that overturned his team-mate's superior strategy. There were races in that first half-season – Bahrain and Barcelona – where the Red Bull was at least as fast. Button won those races only because he out-drove his team-mate and the Red Bull drivers.

But with a less competitive car and the prospect of a world title on the horizon, he dropped to a less consistently brilliant level. Furthermore, that minimum-input driving style worked against his overcoming the car's Achilles' heel of not being aggressive enough with its tyres.

1. Lewis Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton at the Hungaroring © LAT
Once McLaren gave him a car that was almost there, Hamilton was able to do the rest. His spectacular skill set was on full display from the moment the MP4-24 was given the Nurburgring update that lent it respectability. But bear in mind the team was quite honest in admitting it was still significantly lacking in downforce and aero efficiency.

There was nothing in the data, either the team's own or that from the various indicators of performance on track, that suggested it was in the same league as the Red Bull or – when it was working properly – the Brawn. Yet Hamilton won two races with it regardless and was only prevented from dominating a third (in Abu Dhabi where he had more than 0.5s on the field) by a brake material problem.

In the car's hopeless early-season form, Hamilton's qualifying speed was not notably better than team-mate Kovalainen's, as both could find its modest limits quite easily. Even so, he somehow contrived to get it up to fourth in Melbourne and Bahrain. The moment the car's performance window widened, Hamilton was consistently brilliant. There were also fewer mistakes than in 2007 and 2008, though Monza showed he was still capable of them
#172161
The main issue people are having with hamilton, racechick, is because of his mistakes and the argument his car was bad doesn't hold water since button was still very consitent when his car was bad.

I suppose its kinda hard to compare them because of the different situations, hamilton could just gun for wins and give it all, jenson was thinking about the bigger picture which ultimately won him the championship.

I would even say kimi outranks hamilton for consistency here, and I'd say on average throught the season his car was worse than hamiltons. Problem is I can't really remember kimi in the early stages much.
#172165
Hamilton's car wasn't actually bad from about Germany onwards, whereas Kimi's was mediocre (not as bad as the McLaren to start with) but never really improved. The fact that he scored heavily late in the season was to do with the tracks they visited suiting the Ferrari. He still had the most work to do out of all the other drivers who won a race last year imo.
#172167
What I picked upon where the tracks that Lewis/McLaren did well at were the shitty low speed ones.
Monaco, Hungary, Singabore

See our F1 related articles too!