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[Jensonb]

I really doubt the FiA is stupid enough to put McLaren in danger of collapse, but it seems like we might be hearing about some preposterously draconian penalty. This going to get ugly

[EwanM]

Come on guys and girls, calm down. This is for constructive (yet sometimes random) conversation.
Don't make it that this thread will have to be locked too.

[MAD MAX]

I don't want to cause a ruck, I want to hold a simple discussion, which is something you seem unwilling to do.

[Arsenal 1-nil]

Just a story I'm reiterating (sorry) but myself and my small cadre of friends were F1 fans since Jimmy Clark. Spygate ruined it for us. We opted out of watching and our considerable support of sponsers and well as team gear, travelling to races, etc. Lying maybe the history of F1; it maybe that cheating is entrenched in its culture, but somewhere it has to stop. If it doesn't stop then it ceases to become sport. It becomes the World Wrestling Association--a fake sport that is mere entertainment. If McLaren is banned and the cheating/lying stops then it is worth it. If they are banned and the sport implodes, destroying itself, then it is worth it as well--because when a similiar venture reconstitutes itself honesty will have to be high on its list of important items. Just a thought.

[Gaz]

Just a story I'm reiterating (sorry) but myself and my small cadre of friends were F1 fans since Jimmy Clark. Spygate ruined it for us. We opted out of watching and our considerable support of sponsers and well as team gear, travelling to races, etc. Lying maybe the history of F1; it maybe that cheating is entrenched in its culture, but somewhere it has to stop. If it doesn't stop then it ceases to become sport. It becomes the World Wrestling Association--a fake sport that is mere entertainment. If McLaren is banned and the cheating/lying stops then it is worth it. If they are banned and the sport implodes, destroying itself, then it is worth it as well--because when a similiar venture reconstitutes itself honesty will have to be high on its list of important items. Just a thought.

They'd end up banning half the teams in F1 if that was the case.

Your making a MASSIVE DRAMA out of what was small lie there's been FAR worse things done in F1.

[FerrariFan63]

The dogs on the street know lying has been a part of Formula One since its inception. You could argue about the quality of the evidence for it (which is actually pretty good in several cases), but that's beside the point; it's not as if the FIA actually need evidence which could stand up in a legal system as good as, say, Britain's to punish individuals or teams.

Yes, not all cheating gets detected. As, in the real world, not all crime is detected and prosecuted. That's why punishments need to be harsh when cheating and/or crime is detected. Because in making it not worth cheating or committing a crime in the first place, you've got to take into account that only a percentage gets detected.

I think the evidence in the current situation would stand up in court. It's pretty clear cut.

[McLaren Fan]

The dogs on the street know lying has been a part of Formula One since its inception. You could argue about the quality of the evidence for it (which is actually pretty good in several cases), but that's beside the point; it's not as if the FIA actually need evidence which could stand up in a legal system as good as, say, Britain's to punish individuals or teams.

Yes, not all cheating gets detected. As, in the real world, not all crime is detected and prosecuted. That's why punishments need to be harsh when cheating and/or crime is detected. Because in making it not worth cheating or committing a crime in the first place, you've got to take into account that only a percentage gets detected.

I think the evidence in the current situation would stand up in court. It's pretty clear cut.

The evidence against McLaren in this instance would stand up in court. I don't think I denied that. What I am denying is the idea that the FIA's legal procedures are comparable to those of judicial systems in established democracies, such as the United Kingdom. That the FIA have not hesitated to mete out punishments on the basis of circumstantial, inadmissible and flimsy evidence in the past demonstrates this. And moreover, it makes a mockery of the argument that the reason previous instances of lying, cheating etc. went unpunished in the past only because of a lack of adequate evidence.

[FerrariFan63]

The evidence against McLaren in this instance would stand up in court. I don't think I denied that. What I am denying is the idea that the FIA's legal procedures are comparable to those of judicial systems in established democracies, such as the United Kingdom. That the FIA have not hesitated to mete out punishments on the basis of circumstantial, inadmissible and flimsy evidence in the past demonstrates this. And moreover, it makes a mockery of the argument that the reason previous instances of lying, cheating etc. went unpunished in the past only because of a lack of adequate evidence.

What the FIA has or has not done in the past is of no relevance to what it should do in this situation, and also on the basic principle that punishments intended to deter wrongdoing need to consider the detection rate in order to be a proper deterrent. That is one thing.

What the FIA will do in this situation is a quite different thing, and quite different argument. Past history is much more important here in predicting what the FIA will do.

You have confused my argument on the fundamental rights and wrongs with a prediction on what the FIA is likely to do or not do. Past FIA inconsistency and strange behaviour has no relevance to anything I was talking about.

[MAD MAX]

I think the evidence in the current situation would stand up in court. It's pretty clear cut.

Are you a Q.C or what, whats your legal qualifications to make such a statement. wind ya neck in and wait to see what happens

[Gaz]

The thing is what most people Mclaren fans and people who don't like Mclaren that much all agree on.

Is this should of stopped with Mclaren and Hamiltons Disqualifaction from Oz.

[Jensonb]

I think the evidence in the current situation would stand up in court. It's pretty clear cut.

Are you a Q.C or what, whats your legal qualifications to make such a statement. wind ya neck in and wait to see what happens

Laymen are allowed to voice opinions on legal matters. The fact is, it doesn't take legal training to understand that multiple recordings disputing testimony and an admission of false testimony are sufficient to prosecute.

[FerrariFan63]

Are you a Q.C or what, whats your legal qualifications to make such a statement. wind ya neck in and wait to see what happens

They have recordings of the radio conversations, and asked LH and DR to reconfirm their story severl times. You don't need to be a QC to know that will stand up in court. You only need to be a "Q.C. or what" for more borderline cases.

[FerrariFan63]

The thing is what most people Mclaren fans and people who don't like Mclaren that much all agree on.

Is this should of stopped with Mclaren and Hamiltons Disqualifaction from Oz.

Most McLaren fans, maybe. I don't think the same applies to most people who do not have a specific attachment to McLaren. I've certainly seen many people express the opinion that the transgression was sufficiently serious that some sort of censure is right and proper.

[Gaz]

The thing is what most people Mclaren fans and people who don't like Mclaren that much all agree on.

Is this should of stopped with Mclaren and Hamiltons Disqualifaction from Oz.

Most McLaren fans, maybe. I don't think the same applies to most people who do not have a specific attachment to McLaren. I've certainly seen many people express the opinion that the transgression was sufficiently serious that some sort of censure is right and proper.

Yeh but its becomming a joke now.

[Jensonb]

The thing is what most people Mclaren fans and people who don't like Mclaren that much all agree on.

Is this should of stopped with Mclaren and Hamiltons Disqualifaction from Oz.

Most McLaren fans, maybe. I don't think the same applies to most people who do not have a specific attachment to McLaren. I've certainly seen many people express the opinion that the transgression was sufficiently serious that some sort of censure is right and proper.

Yeh but its becomming a joke now.

Unfortunately, with Macca on probation from 2007, it's unavoidable.