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By darwin dali
#112164
F1live:
Norbert Haug has been playing down the speculation in Bahrain, but back in Germany it is clear that Mercedes-Benz's involvement in Formula One is very much in doubt.

The CEO of the Stuttgart marque's parent, Daimler AG, has told a German news magazine that the 'lie-gate' affair could have terminal consequences in terms of Mercedes' F1 project.

"If circumstances should change, perhaps because of an unreasonable punishment by the FIA, it is possible that we could consider our engagement," Dieter Zetsche told Focus.

The publication added that the Daimler executive committee will meet to discuss possibly exiting Formula One on Monday, two days before the World Motor Sport Council considers fraud charges against team partner McLaren in Paris.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#112166
It's actually pretty sad to see where McLaren has been taken to because of RD's failed leadership.
User avatar
By bud
#112179
"Mclaren should have done it like how Ferrari handled a similiar situation when they were caught lying. What did Ferrari do differently - hmmm nothing. They also lied.

Full article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 023004.stm

Comments from the article - Renault team boss Flavio Briatore, who was Schumacher's team boss at Benetton from 1991-95, disagreed with Ferrari's view.

"It wasn't like he hit the barriers - he just parked the car. I can't believe it," he said.

Alonso was on a faster lap when Schumacher blocked the track "I don't know why he needed to do it. I think he is taking everyone for a ride.

"Someone who was seven times a world champion wants us to believe that he didn't do it on purpose - it's fairyland."

Stewards heard evidence from Schumacher and Ferrari personnel, and reviewed video evidence and data supplied by Ferrari and governing body the FIA.

In a statement, the stewards said they had found "no justifiable reason for the driver to have braked with such undue, excessive and unusual pressure at this part of the circuit.

"Therefore, we are left with no alternative but to conclude that the driver deliberately stopped his car on the circuit."

Now you have to wonder why Mclaren think that there is a witch hunt.

Same punishment for same crime - precedent has already been set. Ferrari were sent to the back of the grid. Mclaren have lost all their points for that race -

SO NO FURTHER PUNISHMENT IS WARRANTED

:yes:
"I can say that if a disproportionately large penalty were given to McLaren on April 29 then the sponsor that I am associated with might leave," said a source close to one of the team's key sponsors. "But the punishment must fit the crime. If there is an irrefutable case of corporate deception then fair enough.

"I think we all know the subtext here," the source continued, "the FIA wanted to oust Ron Dennis.
I believe the governing body have allowed this situation to escalate and it is doing no one any good - not McLaren, not the FIA and certainly not the sport. Apart from anything else, it is dissuading other potential sponsors from entering Formula One."

:yes:
User avatar
By billindenver
#112613
I have to wonder what the McLaren homers really believe a governing body is supposed to do when lied to so publicly. How can any governing body possibly attempt to hold order when the lying team members admit it openly in a press conference unless they are punished for it. They simply can not let it go...it would tell other teams to feel free to lie whenever you like, repeat the lie, be shown the proof and repeat the lie again...because you will only lose the points from that race if you do. So, if it is for one point that you are lying...you have nothing to lose so give it a shot. That simply isn't fair to those you cheated and doesn't offer any disincentive to remain truthful. McLaren deserves a slap on the wrist here for poor management and poor moral standard. I think they are going to get it, and I no more believe the Mercedes line of 'punish them and we're leaving' crap than I believe the 'it will take months to design a diffuser' crap. If I lie to a judge in court, I know I'm going to regret it....McLaren needs to learn that lying to the stewards also has consequences....otherwise they will never learn not to do so again. It's as plain as that.
By Gaz
#112623
I have to wonder what the McLaren homers really believe a governing body is supposed to do when lied to so publicly. How can any governing body possibly attempt to hold order when the lying team members admit it openly in a press conference unless they are punished for it. They simply can not let it go...it would tell other teams to feel free to lie whenever you like, repeat the lie, be shown the proof and repeat the lie again...because you will only lose the points from that race if you do. So, if it is for one point that you are lying...you have nothing to lose so give it a shot. That simply isn't fair to those you cheated and doesn't offer any disincentive to remain truthful. McLaren deserves a slap on the wrist here for poor management and poor moral standard. I think they are going to get it, and I no more believe the Mercedes line of 'punish them and we're leaving' crap than I believe the 'it will take months to design a diffuser' crap. If I lie to a judge in court, I know I'm going to regret it....McLaren needs to learn that lying to the stewards also has consequences....otherwise they will never learn not to do so again. It's as plain as that.


In football if a player dived he would get a yellow card and the team would get a free kick.

So thats a player trying to decive one of the Stewards(referee)

If a Player did it again in the same match he'd get a red card and be disqualified from playing (sent off)

Mclaren lied twice and got a disqualifaction and quiet rightly so.

So they have been punished.

The problem is Ferrari did somthing VERY simlar in Monaco by parking the car on the track and Schui and Toltd then decived the strewards and he recived a punishment so they obviously thought they were lieing. I even understand they lied twice when questioned about it.

I also belive the Telematary proved it.

So, why the double standerds why does Mclalren have to go to a council hearing when Ferrari get a very light punishement?

The only explination i can come up with is Either:

The FIA support Ferrari more than other teams OR they FIA hate Mclaren more than other teams.

So you can call us Mclaren fan's homers all you want but give me a good explination for that MASSIVLY diffrent treatment for two teams in a SPORT thats ment to be FAIR.
User avatar
By MAD MAX
#112625
I have to wonder what the McLaren homers really believe a governing body is supposed to do when lied to so publicly. How can any governing body possibly attempt to hold order when the lying team members admit it openly in a press conference unless they are punished for it. They simply can not let it go...it would tell other teams to feel free to lie whenever you like, repeat the lie, be shown the proof and repeat the lie again...because you will only lose the points from that race if you do. So, if it is for one point that you are lying...you have nothing to lose so give it a shot. That simply isn't fair to those you cheated and doesn't offer any disincentive to remain truthful. McLaren deserves a slap on the wrist here for poor management and poor moral standard. I think they are going to get it, and I no more believe the Mercedes line of 'punish them and we're leaving' crap than I believe the 'it will take months to design a diffuser' crap. If I lie to a judge in court, I know I'm going to regret it....McLaren needs to learn that lying to the stewards also has consequences....otherwise they will never learn not to do so again. It's as plain as that.


In football if a player dived he would get a yellow card and the team would get a free kick.

So thats a player trying to decive one of the Stewards(referee)

:yes:

If a Player did it again in the same match he'd get a red card and be disqualified from playing (sent off)

Mclaren lied twice and got a disqualifaction and quiet rightly so.

So they have been punished.

The problem is Ferrari did somthing VERY simlar in Monaco by parking the car on the track and Schui and Toltd then decived the strewards and he recived a punishment so they obviously thought they were lieing. I even understand they lied twice when questioned about it.

I also belive the Telematary proved it.

So, why the double standerds why does Mclalren have to go to a council hearing when Ferrari get a very light punishement?

The only explination i can come up with is Either:

The FIA support Ferrari more than other teams OR they FIA hate Mclaren more than other teams.

So you can call us Mclaren fan's homers all you want but give me a good explination for that MASSIVLY diffrent treatment for two teams in a SPORT thats ment to be FAIR.
User avatar
By billindenver
#112664
I have to wonder what the McLaren homers really believe a governing body is supposed to do when lied to so publicly. How can any governing body possibly attempt to hold order when the lying team members admit it openly in a press conference unless they are punished for it. They simply can not let it go...it would tell other teams to feel free to lie whenever you like, repeat the lie, be shown the proof and repeat the lie again...because you will only lose the points from that race if you do. So, if it is for one point that you are lying...you have nothing to lose so give it a shot. That simply isn't fair to those you cheated and doesn't offer any disincentive to remain truthful. McLaren deserves a slap on the wrist here for poor management and poor moral standard. I think they are going to get it, and I no more believe the Mercedes line of 'punish them and we're leaving' crap than I believe the 'it will take months to design a diffuser' crap. If I lie to a judge in court, I know I'm going to regret it....McLaren needs to learn that lying to the stewards also has consequences....otherwise they will never learn not to do so again. It's as plain as that.


In football if a player dived he would get a yellow card and the team would get a free kick.

So thats a player trying to decive one of the Stewards(referee)

If a Player did it again in the same match he'd get a red card and be disqualified from playing (sent off)

Mclaren lied twice and got a disqualifaction and quiet rightly so.

So they have been punished.

The problem is Ferrari did somthing VERY simlar in Monaco by parking the car on the track and Schui and Toltd then decived the strewards and he recived a punishment so they obviously thought they were lieing. I even understand they lied twice when questioned about it.

I also belive the Telematary proved it.

So, why the double standerds why does Mclalren have to go to a council hearing when Ferrari get a very light punishement?

The only explination i can come up with is Either:

The FIA support Ferrari more than other teams OR they FIA hate Mclaren more than other teams.

So you can call us Mclaren fan's homers all you want but give me a good explination for that MASSIVLY diffrent treatment for two teams in a SPORT thats ment to be FAIR.



Lets examine the effect of your football reference and F1. In football, you dive and get a penalty..much like in F1 when you do something wrong you get a drive through. The difference between diving and lying to the stewards though is the benefit of doing so. How many millions of dollars, pounds, chickens is a point in F1 worth? Also, the referee believes he dived and must opt to make that call right that moment...but the player can claim it isn't true..like Schumachers parking fiasco...and there is no PROOF he is lying. In the liegate affair the PROOF that he is lying is Hamilton crying his eyes out in the press and assuring the world that his team was lying. THAT is what pisses me off so much about his actions....he handed the FIA solid, complete proof that he had not forgotten the radio conversation, there wasn't a mistake in the heat of battle made...he told the world that his team had fabricated a complete lie and then backed that lie for days on end and through more than one questioning....INTENTIONALLY. In other words, if he had kept his ego driven mouth effing SHUT....there was at least SOME reason for the FIA to possibly think the lies were not completely intentional, planned well in advance and executed with no conscience what so ever. That is where the difference lies here. If a football team cheated outright...and then spent days lying to the governing body over it...then held a press conference admitting what they had done....that team would lose more than one game over it. They would have to. This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what other teams in the future will believe they can get away with..and consequences for acting in the disgraceful manner that McLaren acted in.

As far as Schumachers parking job...I was as furious as you are over it...but the difference here is they could not prove what was in his mind when he did it and he wasn't ego stricken and ignorant enough to hold a press conference admitting to the whole thing. If he had been that ignorant, he would have been punished heavier than he was. You have to leave the stewards an out, a reason to wonder whether or not you truly deserve to be bounced on, otherwise they have no choice but to do so. Whatever McLaren get for their actions, it is as much the fault of their egomaniac driver and his press conference as it is anyone in the team who may or may not have directed him. He handed the FIA the proverbial smoking gun..to expect it will not be used against them is just silly.
User avatar
By Gilles 27
#112673
Erm no... I like actual sportscar companies entering F1 teams. I'd love to see a full works Mercedes Benz F1 team like the 1950s. And as for Ferrari becoming only an engine supplier :vomit:
By Gaz
#112701
Lets examine the effect of your football reference and F1. In football, you dive and get a penalty..much like in F1 when you do something wrong you get a drive through. The difference between diving and lying to the stewards though is the benefit of doing so. How many millions of dollars, pounds, chickens is a point in F1 worth?


Well it depends really drive though's and penaltys are to even a situation when somone has done wrong.

Wheras the Yellow - Red - Match Ban is like a disqualifaction because somone has done somthing very wrong several times.

Points in F1 are priceless because it can be the diffrence between winning the WDC and loosing it, so the fact Hamilton and the Team have lot 6 points is enough i feel.

Also, the referee believes he dived and must opt to make that call right that moment...but the player can claim it isn't true..like Schumachers parking fiasco...and there is no PROOF he is lying.



No they have linemen at each corner of the ptich who most of the time can see whats going on so its usual pretty conclusive.

And i belive Schui's telematry + in car video showed it was parked.

and Schui did lie: "i locked up the front and went wide." was his words now thats the same as Lewis saying "i didn't volantary let truli past" in my eyes.

In the liegate affair the PROOF that he is lying is Hamilton crying his eyes out in the press and assuring the world that his team was lying. THAT is what pisses me off so much about his actions....he handed the FIA solid, complete proof that he had not forgotten the radio conversation, there wasn't a mistake in the heat of battle made...he told the world that his team had fabricated a complete lie and then backed that lie for days on end and through more than one questioning....INTENTIONALLY. In other words, if he had kept his ego driven mouth effing SHUT....there was at least SOME reason for the FIA to possibly think the lies were not completely intentional, planned well in advance and executed with no conscience what so ever. That is where the difference lies here. If a football team cheated outright...and then spent days lying to the governing body over it...then held a press conference admitting what they had done....that team would lose more than one game over it. They would have to. This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what other teams in the future will believe they can get away with..and consequences for acting in the disgraceful manner that McLaren acted in.


Like i said above Schui lied in the same way when questioned. I doubt Lewis had much time to say yes or no and i agree its was wrong for the team and him to lie regadlress if he was forced or not.

Don't think it had anything to do with ego though i think Lewis did the right thing by comming clean takes a bigger man to do that than it does to stay quiet about it and get nothing more than being pushed to the back of the gird losing a potential 6 points.


As far as Schumachers parking job...I was as furious as you are over it...but the difference here is they could not prove what was in his mind when he did it and he wasn't ego stricken and ignorant enough to hold a press conference admitting to the whole thing. If he had been that ignorant, he would have been punished heavier than he was. You have to leave the stewards an out, a reason to wonder whether or not you truly deserve to be bounced on, otherwise they have no choice but to do so. Whatever McLaren get for their actions, it is as much the fault of their egomaniac driver and his press conference as it is anyone in the team who may or may not have directed him. He handed the FIA the proverbial smoking gun..to expect it will not be used against them is just silly.


Like i said i belive the stewards made the decision on telematry + in car/extenal video.

So they belived him to be lieing.

They only think they didn't have was admission of guilt or some SOLID evidence like him saying "i'm going to park it to stop alonso" on the radio.

Which if they did i imgine it wouldn't of been released and he would of got the same punishment.

I mean i can say that i truly belive if Hamilton did that this year in monaco they would disqualify him straight out and prob issue a race ban given the same evidence just because he drives for Mclaren. yet i Massa did it he would get the same as schui.

Futhermore Ferrrari did the same thing as Hamilton in Oz given the same evidence they would of been disqualifed perhaps but there would be no fuss and no WMSC hearing.
User avatar
By racechick
#112711
You have to face it Bill you cant have it both ways. Lewis lied and Schuey lied. A lie is a lie. It should be the same punishment for each team with a liar and the same punishment for the actual liars themselves, regardless of personal views on the mitigating circumstances surrounding the lies. And I think you'll find there are a lot more than Lewis and Schuey.
User avatar
By bud
#112722
It's funny and borderline hypocritcal that you never had the same convictions on honesty and deceit when you were following Ferrari! I know you think i'm trying to turn it around on you but that's far from it! I cannot take your glorified do good bullpoo speach when in the past you followed the most corrupt driver and team of all time! What's clear is your distaste for McLaren in everything you speak and which rivals max mosley in your enthusiasm! Or maybe you just hate on Brits? Hard to say!
User avatar
By billindenver
#112869
It's funny and borderline hypocritcal that you never had the same convictions on honesty and deceit when you were following Ferrari! I know you think i'm trying to turn it around on you but that's far from it! I cannot take your glorified do good bullpoo speach when in the past you followed the most corrupt driver and team of all time! What's clear is your distaste for McLaren in everything you speak and which rivals max mosley in your enthusiasm! Or maybe you just hate on Brits? Hard to say!


Directed at me, or everyone in general? You didn't specify. If at me, you should know by now....I never liked Schumacher because I felt he was an egomaniac, lying, cheating piece of garbage who would crash a competitor rather than race him if it was to his advantage....which oddly enough is the same set of reasons I don't like Hamilton. Truth be told, I was yelling for Schumacher to be severely penalized for his parking maneuver, but alas there was no concrete proof on which to base such a penalty. Sure, we all knew what he did...but it could not be proven and any penalty that results in millions of dollars lost had BETTER be able to be proven. Now, had Schumacher broken down into tears, called a press conference and wailed on about how honest and forthright he is..while declaring that his team had used a voicebox remote control on him to force him to lie.....well, that would be the concrete proof that was missing now wouldn't it? But...he didn't...and that proof did not exist. He claimed to have pushed wide. The camera sitting a foot over his head didn't seem to appear that way, but then the driver could possibly believe he was closer to the wall when lower down in the car. Could...possibly....so not proven one way or the other. That is not the case here...McLaren and Hamilton have done everything in their power to show they are guilty. They have removed two management people and Lewis cried his eyes out over his lost Lie Virginity. They could not have handled it worse in my opinion. I hope their penalty is not too severe...but a penalty of some sort they certainly deserve. Yes, Hamilton loss points that he attempted to steal in the first place....that is what he deserved for the first lie he told the stewards. That second round of lying however was worse...especially when allowed to hear his own voice on the radio. To lie again after that? The team and the driver deserve to lose more than one race's points.

A couple more days and we will know....
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