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#85110
But i dunno i dont like to pigeon hole certain nations cars as all encompassing,


? No comprendo ! :confused: i guess that's as far as my english went... :)

and the Japs use boost instead of displacement to make power. not that more technologically advanced there!


Look at this:

YR Make & Model Trim Engine Power Fuel Eff.
'08 Chevrolet Equinox LS 2WD 3.4 L V6 185 HP 17/24 MPG
'08 Ford Escape XLT 2WD 3.0 L V6 200 HP 18/24 MPG
'08 Toyota RAV4 Base 2WD V6 3.5 L V6 269 HP 19/27 MPG
'08 For Explorer XLT 2WD 4.0 L V6 210 HP 14/20 MPG

'08 Honda Accord Coupe V6 3.5 L V6 268 HP 19/28 MPG
'08 Ford Mustang Coupe V6 4.0 L V6 210 HP 17/26 MPG
'08 Chevrolet Impala LS 3.5 L V6 211 HP 18/29 MPG

Ok... who's killing who. And where's the turbos??
this happens in almost every vehicle category.
#85115
my comment means i dont like to label auto makes based on their nation and what others in that nation do rather than on their own right.

And what am i looking at? theres all American cars there bar the Honda and Toyota.
Besides you were talking power levels and Americans use displacement to up power while the Japanese prefer to use Turbo chargers.
#85119
Ah well, you're right, its ussually not accurate to label the country's car industry with the policies of the nation... But this is too big of a crash to say its only a 'private' industry matter.

And about the numbers, its a comparison between american cars vs their jap competition. All of them feature a similar engine size and still the japs get a lot more power and far better mileage. Now that's a technologically superior engine! and the reason japs are killing american autos.
#85121
I know what youre saying and a large part of that is the market in which the cars are sold, Japan is a congested place so small cars small engines play a very large roll in thinking and have done for quite a while. So yeah i agree they are ahead in the small engine department but i dont think the Yanks are too far behind as the cars youre comparing arent exactly in the same league as a Toyota Rav4 is surely the smallest and lightest in the group you mentioned so that will play a roll in Mileage! im not sure as the only cars im familiar with the American cars in those groups.
Besides companies like Ford own Mazda they can get small engine technology off the shelf from Japana and Europe. they have no excuse!
#85193
The only car there out of league is the Explorer; and i only placed it there to show what Ford gets out of a 4L V6. All the others are the same class and price range. Maybe the RAV4 is the lightest, maybe, but still it has like 60 HP more pwr.

AND these were all med-large engines. If you see the figures for 4 cyls the japs are even more powerful...

Im sure Australia has a similar issue as US being a large country too, which should prefer larger engines; but in the end urban/congested areas have more people and cars, so its a bigger market... And if a company can make smaller engines that have the power and good longevity, then people will run to those for the savings in gas.
#85213
A casualty of the coming reg changes:
F1live
Williams is preparing to scrap its test team, according to reports.

The Dutch portal f1today.nl quoted an unnamed mechanic, based at the British team's Grove headquarters, as saying the test team is expected to be wound up.

The news is almost certainly a reaction to F1's radical cost cutting reforms, including the total banning of in-season circuit testing from 2009.

The Williams test mechanic said: "We are open to (getting jobs with) all the other Formula One teams and also to other categories in Europe."

He said the news is "not official yet" but "only a matter of time."

It is reported that, beginning next month, Williams' test activities will instead be handled by members of the race team.
#85228
The one thing about all of these cost-cutting measures is that quite a few people will be made redundant. :(
#85230
The one thing about all of these cost-cutting measures is that quite a few people will be made redundant. :(


Yeah well, most of the teams are bloated anyway - trimming some fat will only enhance the competition (management skills, efficiency, etc.) and bring the costs down. It's sad for the individual affected by lay-offs, but beneficial for the greater good which is F1. I sure hope that people who get laid off will get a generous severance package and excellent recommendation letters! :director::director::director:
#85266
eah well, most of the teams are bloated anyway - trimming some fat will only enhance the competition (management skills, efficiency, etc.) and bring the costs down. It's sad for the individual affected by lay-offs, but beneficial for the greater good which is F1. I sure hope that people who get laid off will get a generous severance package and excellent recommendation letters!


Yes, that's right. If everyone in F1 is the best in what they do, then they will certainly find places to use their skills. Its a pity in some way, but something good will probably come put of it...

I also believe F1 will be better off with less testing. Races like Barcelona have no surprises... they test too much there. And anyway, all the teams get some hrs of testing prior to each race... if they are the best in what they do, then they can certainly find good set ups for the race. If not... then its the same for everyone, so no harm to competition. Most of the other testing is for in-season development, and this is part of where they want to cut cost with... so it is only reasonable to trim this area.

What should be done is... 1-2 in season official test for developments. And another couple of tests for trainin potential drivers. On equal conditions and cost efficientizised (does this word exist??) for all the teams.
#85292
On equal conditions and cost efficientizised (does this word exist??) for all the teams.


No, that word doesn't exist (yet) :P You'd have to describe it in some other way such as 'with optimized cost efficiency' or similar.
#85301
The one thing about all of these cost-cutting measures is that quite a few people will be made redundant. :(


lol expect another "skill seekers" type policy by New Labour in Britain :hehe:
#85314
How F1's cash crisis could help the sport http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2 ... _help.html
Matt Slater 17 Dec 08, 11:51 PM Here's a question for the petrolheads, procurement experts and financial controllers amongst you: how many dummy cameras do you think a Formula One team needs? That's dummy cameras - the pretend ones they attach during testing - not the real ones they are given by TV for the races.

Three (one for each car, including the spare)? Four (a spare one just in case)? Or perhaps six (a spare one for each car in case they all fall off during the same bumpy testing session)?

Well, one team made 49 last year. But then they spent £300m in total so they probably didn't notice they were doing it.

Much of that money went on squeezing a few more horsepower out of the internal combustion engine, an invention that is now comfortably a century old, a challenge that many of this country's finest engineers put their collective brains to in an effort that would have gone completely unnoticed by motorsport's many fans.


But the revelation that F1 teams can run up eye-watering bills is right up there with the Pope's religious leanings and what bears do in the woods in terms of shock value.

Frankly it would be more of a surprise if F1 wasn't a trailer-sized hole in somebody's pocket (three miles to the gallon, long weekends in Monaco, all that champagne). The key was who those pockets belonged to: sales-chasing car manufacturers, speed-freak billionaires and other assorted cash cows.

For many years, F1 was loud, proud and lumpy but it didn't matter because Ferrari had a waiting list for the 6,000 or so cars it produces a year, Honda and Toyota were hitting Detroit's "Big Three" where it hurts and once every few years an idea like anti-locking brakes or traction control would trickle down to the saloon classes.

And then the police arrived, the party broke up and somebody was presented with a bill for those two wind tunnels they built to find a few hundredths of a second on a twisty track. The reckoning, when it finally came, was fittingly rapid.

If Super Aguri's mid-season departure was a warning, few seemed to heed it because Honda's exit came as a shock despite the Japanese giant's slumping sales and paddock profligacy.

With rumours swirling of another manufacturer considering something similar, it was time for motorsport to cut up the credit cards and get a grip. Which, to be fair, they did. Or have at least started to do.

The cost-cutting measures revealed by motorsport's governing body, the FIA, and the F1 teams in Monte Carlo last week, represent a result for common sense and appear to have stopped the bleeding for now.


But what happens next is anybody's guess. The grid looks like being at least two cars light next season, sponsorship is going to be hard to come by for at least a year or two and the pressure on the carmakers' balance sheets is going to grow. After all, where is the magic of Ferrari when the classifieds tell you the value of a used 559 has just tanked?

And it's not just F1: rallying lost two manufacturers in two days, Subaru and Suzuki, a huge blow for a sport that is struggling for exposure.

But all of that does not have to bring about the end of F1, or motor racing in general. It just needs to bring about the end of a particularly reckless era for the sport's finances.

The basic proposition of publicity, research and development and occasionally decent racing remains intact. Well, that's what the BBC is banking on...but so, it seems, are BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota and the myriad corporations that are still using F1's mobile billboards to sell their products.

Some insiders even think the economic downturn could be the saving of F1: less really could be more if the sport's decision-makers hold their nerve and push for further cost reductions.

By doing that they may just inject a little more human interest into what can, at times, become an engineering competition, tempt in new entrants to shake up the grid, and reduce F1's dependence on the sales figures of its main sponsors' road car divisions.

It was just over a year ago that David Richards, the boss of Prodrive, was forced to admit defeat in his attempt to lower the sport's barriers of entry.

His idea was to turn the clock back to the 1960s and 70s, when independent teams drove rings around the better resourced "works" teams of Ferrari and other "grandes marques".

The "garagistes" bought their engines and gear boxes off the shelf and built a car around them. This low-cost approach annoyed the bigger teams, who made everything themselves, but took nothing away from the spectacle.

Richards, who wanted to buy in the whole package, would get a better hearing for his "customer car" approach now and if there is any truth to paddock gossip Prodrive may get its chance to emulate the likes of Brabham and Lotus soon.

It will be a longer wait for a more aspiring entrant such as iSport International - which runs a successful team in the tier below F1, GP2 - but if F1's elite can be further persuaded of the virtues of cheaper racing the Norwich-based company is confident an independent outfit could make commercial and competitive sense.

Could we be on the verge of a return to the days when "privateers" like Lord Hesketh could put together a fast car on the cheap and find a dashing talent to drive it to victory, as James Hunt did at the 1975 Dutch Grand Prix?


Hesketh himself, isn't so sure. The life-long motorsport enthusiast and Conservative politician thinks that era has passed and the leading teams will emerge from their current cash-flow concerns even more powerful within F1.

Back when Hesketh Racing's teddy bear-badged cars were mixing it with the best they were doing it on an annual budget that equates to about £7m in today's money. Brabham, Lotus and Tyrell were on twice that, while Ferrari were on the equivalent of £50m, one sixth what they spend now. Hesketh Racing's staff was 25 - "we thought that was the Rolls Royce gold standard" he told me - and that included the truck drivers. Honda's headcount is more than 750.

For Hesketh, the only way to bring back the privateer era is to impose the "customer car" solution on F1, reducing costs and opening up competition at a stroke.

"We need original thoughts and big decisions, not these incremental changes. Engines must be made available to other teams at a sensible price," he said.

"There will be a lot of shouting about technology but if you want to look at technology go to the Farnborough Air Show!"

The good news for Hesketh, and F1, is there is still something that counts for more than money, talent.

"I remember the first time I saw Lewis Hamilton put two wheels on the dirt in Melbourne and it was the first time I'd seen an Englishman since James Hunt keep his foot on the accelerator," he said.

"I said to myself this guy can drive."

While there are still fans like Hesketh, watching talents like Hamilton, F1 should just about muddle through.
#85332
Very interesting read, especially the part on the cost of the dummy cameras.
#85333
The thing i don't like about these new changes is the fact that us F1 fans won't be able to go to Silverstone or Barcelona to see any test sessions now they are banned during in seasons
Its a shame they have to take away a bit more of our enjoyment.

:(:(

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