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[FerrariFan63]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The End of F1 is near

End of manufacturer led F1, probably. Whether that takes all of F1 down with it depends on how clever Max and Bernie are. Oh dear.

One important thing to note is that TV rights and race rights are sold for huge amounts of money. As are tickets. Even if the world has a severe financial contraction, there is considerable space for Max and particularly Bernie to reduce the money asked for F1 while there still is money to pass onto the teams to keep them afloat. Even if money for advertising becomes limited, there's always going to be the classic situation where if the price of advertising in F1 races/on cars/tracks etc, goes down, the demand will go up. Budgets for teams are massively bloated, and they could shrink to a tiny fraction of current amounts while still allowing teams and drivers to compete in races. There is an astonishing amount of fat that can be cut while still allowing the series to continue. But such a contraction has to be managed in a sufficiently sophisticated manner. Are Max and Bernie capable of it?

[KyrosV]

hmmm, I hope a privateer party buys Honda. There is alot of potential in that team. They already have alot of the 2009 spec car ready, sign up Ross and Bruno, get some sponsorship on the car for god sake and get racing asap please!!

oooh whats happening to the petrobras deal? do you think they could take on the team?

[FerrariFan63]

What might be interesting if another manufacturer or two announces their withdrawl. Then you need three new entrants. Four if Red Bull withdraws. Then you could get Stoddart, Richards, and someone else (Aguri?) approaching Mad Max in a united front saying that they'd be interested in taking over the teams, but they want assurances about the future direction of F1. A bit of brinksmanship then ensues, and Max backs down.

[McLaren Fan]

I'm not really sure I buy all of this apocalypticism, although I do agree the situation is not good. Formula One is a valuable place to be for marketing etc., so when the economic climate improves, any manufacturers that left the sport could re-enter, even if the regulations about what you can and can't spend may be different.

Even if Honda get a buyer for next season they are screwed. Their 2009 chassis will have been designed around the Honda engines. The Ferrari engines will have different properties, so they'll be a similar situation as McLaren after Honda left Formula One in the early 1990s.

[KyrosV]

surely the Honda F1 engines for 2009 could be bought? remember last time Honda left F1, The Engines were bought and became Mugan-Honda?

[8-ball]

I wonder which OTHER construtors will follow , in light of the present world crisis....

Toyota may be the next one to go. They have plenty of money but they have not had much success just like Honda and seeing their fellow Japanese manufacturer leave the sport it may be the tipping point in their decision.

The fact is costs are too high in F1 and it is not really worth the time and money if you are not successful. A lot of members have talked about a class system but I have my reservations. I think things need to be standardized as much as possible (I draw the line at engines) it is the only way to dramatically cut the costs immediately.

Secondly Bernie needs to realize that his empire is not as valuable as it once. His business model of charging whatever the hell he wanted may have worked
before but it isn't going to cut it now. Track owners are more willing to host lower championship series than and get more fans through the gates that pay Bernie's extortionate prices to host an F1 race they have little chance of making a profit from.

This alienates fans and moves the F1 show more to the middle east where the tracks are dull and the show is duller. F1 needs to change otherwise it is going to die

[FerrariFan63]

I wonder which OTHER construtors will follow , in light of the present world crisis....

Toyota may be the next one to go. They have plenty of money but they have not had much success just like Honda and seeing their fellow Japanese manufacturer leave the sport it may be the tipping point in their decision.

The fact is costs are too high in F1 and it is not really worth the time and money if you are not successful. A lot of members have talked about a class system but I have my reservations. I think things need to be standardized as much as possible (I draw the line at engines) it is the only way to dramatically cut the costs immediately.

Toyota seem a possibility, but I could see Red Bull scale back to one team. Particularly without customer cars. Renault have always seemed less committed than other manufacturers.

Secondly Bernie needs to realize that his empire is not as valuable as it once. His business model of charging whatever the hell he wanted may have worked
before but it isn't going to cut it now. Track owners are more willing to host lower championship series than and get more fans through the gates that pay Bernie's extortionate prices to host an F1 race they have little chance of making a profit from.

This alienates fans and moves the F1 show more to the middle east where the tracks are dull and the show is duller. F1 needs to change otherwise it is going to die

This I think will be a major problem. Bernie will lose a big chunk of his wealth in a divorce, and may be disinclined to allow the remaining portion to be downvalued. Greed and over-optimism often go together.

[bob_bc]

It's sad that the premier series of motor racing in the world has developed into such a cost intensive series which cannot permanently sustain itself without radical restructuring. But, there's positive potential here, should management choose to accept the challenge.

I've documented many of these changes in the forum:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/cha ... ix_series/

1. Produce race cars, not ground effects machines.
2. Simplify chassis', more motor, less bodyworks.
3. Uncover the driver.
4. Uncover the wheels.
5. Drift corners to eliminate ground effects cheating.
6. Feeder series that are truly world-wide in scope.
7. Reduce costs to enhance participation.
8. More races.
9. More passing.

IMHO

Bob

[iPod]

Don't forget that Berger said he wouldn't rule out a return. So if, say, Toyota drop out, there would be an opportunity for him to jump in. I would like to think he would bring valuable sponsors and backing to a team to get them off the ground.

I'm not totally against all of the cost cutting ideas. The single engine is a really stupid idea. But the whole standardised brakes, wheels, gearboxes, steering wheels etc is a no brainer. Engine and Aero has to be team based. I would also include KERS into that too. Its potentially one of the last things that could differentiate the cars.

I also think an "off the shelf" engine would be a good idea, but only if a maximum number of teams could use it. 3 teams with it would be a good number. If you think about it, next year there will be three Ferrari powered and two Mclaren powered teams in 09, so it won't be too different. But they should put a twist on it. I.e, it would be slightly underpowered, but would be so fuel efficient, that it would be competitive in a different area.

So yeah, all is not lost. But it is definitely scary.

[Gaz]

what a turn around for honda only a few months ago there was talk of a Honda Europe/Japan and a Honda North America team on the grid.

and now thats all gone, unbelivible

If ther was any team who i thought was going to be with F1 for awhile its was Honda.

[8-ball]

what a turn around for honda only a few months ago there was talk of a Honda Europe/Japan and a Honda North America team on the grid.

and now thats all gone, unbelivible

If ther was any team who i thought was going to be with F1 for awhile its was Honda.

F1 is no fun for a big company who doesn't win races yet has one of the biggest spending budgets on the grid.

[KyrosV]

what a turn around for honda only a few months ago there was talk of a Honda Europe/Japan and a Honda North America team on the grid.

and now thats all gone, unbelivible

If ther was any team who i thought was going to be with F1 for awhile its was Honda.

F1 is no fun for a big company who doesn't win races yet has one of the biggest spending budgets on the grid.

Ross Brawn belives its a tragedy because they had a race winning car for 2009, and I slightly agree with him

http://www.ebay.com

[Matkins]

I was shocked to hear Honda have exited the sport. But if you look at these statistics its really no mystery:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/11/09/4378133-the-price-of-a-point-in-2008/

Honda spent vastly more money per point won than any other team this year, if we exclude the fact that Force1 India have spent lots for 0 points.

28 and a half million $ per point is ridiculous, and I don't blame them for leaving.

[Stealthgate007]

Toyota Makes a Statement following Honda's withdraw.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=36692

[FerrariFan63]

Ross Brawn belives its a tragedy because they had a race winning car for 2009, and I slightly agree with him

http://www.ebay.com

How much of that is his true belief about their car, and how much of that is an attempt to draw in potential purchasers?