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[f1ea]

Manufactured champion. At least Ayrton can say he won a title against a fellow world champion in the same car
no doubting Schumi had immense talent but to hear all his fanatics claim he is the greatest of all time and use his stats as the basis should look at how they came about before opening their mouths and making those claims.

The difficulty lies in whether we use "the numbers" to assess who the best is, or if we consider "who and in what conditions" he beat to become champion. But Ayrton WENT to the best car, while Michael MADE the best car... so that has to count for something. In the end, I don't think MS is as great as his numbers show... while Senna and Villeneuve were probably greater than their numbers will ever show...

Being a fan... I'd rather watch Senna and Villeneuve. But if I was a team owner, i'd rather have Schumacher in my team.
There you go. I got it

[bud]

Michael made the best car? he brought key personnel from his winning Benetton team with him to Ferrari! Now did he create the winning personnel for the two titles at Benetton? NO
and if you believe in what you said then he wouldnt have left Jordan would he? why not stick around there and MAKE them the best if thats what he is good at doing?

And i wouldnt be too hard on Ayrton he did bring Honda with him to work exclusively with McLaren in 1988 and look what he made there 3 titles even 4 if you take away Balestere's bias

[texasmr2]

Michael made the best car? he brought key personnel from his winning Benetton team with him to Ferrari!

Those key personell dont drive the car though bud but with Michael's very analitical input THEY make the best car.

Now did he create the winning personnel for the two titles at Benetton? NO

He got lucky that they were already inplace.

and if you believe in what you said then he wouldnt have left Jordan would he? why not stick around there and MAKE them the best if thats what he is good at doing?

That may have been because Jordan was a new team and Benetton was a proven race winner with a longer history? Heck I dont know forsure that's just kinda my take on it.

[f1ea]

Michael made the best car? he brought key personnel from his winning Benetton team with him to Ferrari! Now did he create the winning personnel for the two titles at Benetton? NO
and if you believe in what you said then he wouldnt have left Jordan would he? why not stick around there and MAKE them the best if thats what he is good at doing?

Of course he didn't MAKE it... he's not that good at welding you know

His time in Jordan and his departure was weird and too messy... it would be a subject in its own.
But lets leave it at that he had some offers at the moment, and still he chose to go to a winning, but non- champion team. And... they became 2x champions. Then he "took" key Benetton personnel... to another non- championship winning team. And they became 5x.

That's what i mean by him being able to make the car. Yes, more or less the same as you say Ayrton did with Honda, except that Mclaren was already a solid and proven championship winning team.

Anyway... yet another way of making the comparison:
Would Senna beat Schumacher in the same car? I think yes.
Would Senna have left the 2x champion to a non- champion team, kept his determination over 4 losing yrs and turn them into 5x? I think not.

[McLaren Fan]

MS had won the first two races, both times passing AS in the race. Eventually AS spun out on his own in Brazil and was punted off by MH at the Pacific GP. Zero points for AS, max points for MS. Then Imola happened...

Ha. It is true that Senna was passed in the pits in Brazil, but Benetton had an illegal refueling device, if I recall. Senna later went on to spin out of the race, which was his own fault, but not a sign that his abilities were wanning or that he was under threat from younger drivers. It was a mistake which you see in motor racing from time to time. You can't bring Aida into the equation, for, as you state, Senna was punted off the track by another driver. You have also failed to mention, DD, that the Benetton had illegal traction control and that the Williams FW16 was very tricky to drive.

Michael made the best car? he brought key personnel from his winning Benetton team with him to Ferrari!

Those key personell dont drive the car though bud but with Michael's very analitical input THEY make the best car.

Aye, and not to mention di Montezemolo's millions. FIAT chucked money at Ferrari, nabbed the top staff members from other leading teams, i.e. mainly Benetton, cashed in their favours from the FIA, and gave Schumacher infinite powers to employ who he wanted, when he wanted, and dictate where he wanted them. It would be hard not to win races and championships after several seasons under those conditions. Ferrari themselves said that Senna would have been given those conditions when he came to join the team. I've little doubts that Senna would've done something similar to what Schumacher did at Ferrari.

[deMuRe]

you left out
lack of competition within his team though could that come under the team support guise
and dominant car

You mean lack of destructive competition within the team...

Let the other teams and drivers compete with Ferrari and MS. if MS had failed to deliver, then i'm sure he would have been thrown in a "competitive" driver to his side. But the truth is, NONE of those drivers that kept complaining about how much Ferrari supported MS would have done what MS did for Ferrari either:

MS left the Championship winning car for a mediocre team and turned it into a devastating machine (not by himself of course). But when this team lost out, instead of throwing tantrums or running to the next winning team, he retired.

Very very well said. He was beating other drivers in better cars then him so there was no need for him to have a competative team mate to prove his speed. With Formula One being what it is now, with all the monetary pressures, I garantee you if Schumacher wasn't producing results his demand to have a clear number one and two driver would have been thrown out the window quicker then you could say 'team orders'.

That's what I liked so much about the guy, he strolled into a team, said "do this my way and I'll take care of the results". And he did...

The most anticipation I ever felt being a Schumi disciple was when he had just won his first Championship with Ferrari in 2000, he was talking to the camera's and a reporter asked him "what now for Ferrari and Michael Schumacher?". He simply turned to the camera and said "I predict a new era of Ferrari domination"...

Nuff Said...

[deMuRe]

Senna was already 34 and feeling the breath of the young lion MS - I doubt he'd have changed the stats that much.

Oh thats funny!!

MS had won the first two races, both times passing AS in the race. Eventually AS spun out on his own in Brazil and was punted off by MH at the Pacific GP. Zero points for AS, max points for MS. Then Imola happened...

Yep, very true DD and what I'm about to say is really going to rock the boat.

I read a book a few years back called Formula One PowerBrokers, or something like that, Bernie and his army of lawyers tried to stop it from being published.

I remember reading up on Nigel Mansell's opinion on Prost and Senna, he basically said Schumacher was so good because he was a bit of Prost and Senna rolled into one. (FYI Mansell didn't like Prost and went on for some time to comment on his time at Ferrari).

Anyway, back to my point, Nigel was telling the author of this book his opinion of Senna, something Senna said to him on the podium one time, Nigel had won a race, Senna was 2nd or 3rd, as Nigel is on the top step Senna said to him, "Wonderful feeling isn't it Nigel? You never want to let it go, now you know why I'm such at @sshole out on the track."

Senna knew he was about to have his @ss handed to him on a plate by the young German, he killed himself trying to stay ahead of Schumacher. If you ask me, Senna would have prefferred it that way...

[7UpJordan]

(FYI Mansell didn't like Prost and went on for some time to comment on his time at Ferrari).

Did it mention about the time where Mansell had found a better set-up in his car than Prost and Prost allegedly ordered the mechanics to secretly swap his car with Mansell's?

[deMuRe]

(FYI Mansell didn't like Prost and went on for some time to comment on his time at Ferrari).

Did it mention about the time where Mansell had found a better set-up in his car than Prost and Prost allegedly ordered the mechanics to secretly swap his car with Mansell's?

Oh Yes, plenty of examples!

Prost was a political animal.

Ferrari loved Nigel, he had a big heart and was brave behind the wheel, but Prost used to Manouver behind his back something chronic and managed to convince people in the team that they were better off supporting him as their number one driver.

Got the impression that Nigel was just too nice for his own good, plenty of talent behind the wheel but didn't have that ruthless streak in his character to play all the required games...

[bud]

Senna knew he was about to have his @ss handed to him on a plate by the young German, he killed himself trying to stay ahead of Schumacher. If you ask me, Senna would have prefferred it that way...

youre a sick man demure

[McLaren Fan]

Senna was already 34 and feeling the breath of the young lion MS - I doubt he'd have changed the stats that much.

Oh thats funny!!

MS had won the first two races, both times passing AS in the race. Eventually AS spun out on his own in Brazil and was punted off by MH at the Pacific GP. Zero points for AS, max points for MS. Then Imola happened...

Yep, very true DD and what I'm about to say is really going to rock the boat.

I read a book a few years back called Formula One PowerBrokers, or something like that, Bernie and his army of lawyers tried to stop it from being published.

I remember reading up on Nigel Mansell's opinion on Prost and Senna, he basically said Schumacher was so good because he was a bit of Prost and Senna rolled into one. (FYI Mansell didn't like Prost and went on for some time to comment on his time at Ferrari).

Anyway, back to my point, Nigel was telling the author of this book his opinion of Senna, something Senna said to him on the podium one time, Nigel had won a race, Senna was 2nd or 3rd, as Nigel is on the top step Senna said to him, "Wonderful feeling isn't it Nigel? You never want to let it go, now you know why I'm such at @sshole out on the track."

Senna knew he was about to have his @ss handed to him on a plate by the young German, he killed himself trying to stay ahead of Schumacher. If you ask me, Senna would have prefferred it that way...

You are ignorant and twisted.

[deMuRe]

Senna was already 34 and feeling the breath of the young lion MS - I doubt he'd have changed the stats that much.

Oh thats funny!!

MS had won the first two races, both times passing AS in the race. Eventually AS spun out on his own in Brazil and was punted off by MH at the Pacific GP. Zero points for AS, max points for MS. Then Imola happened...

Yep, very true DD and what I'm about to say is really going to rock the boat.

I read a book a few years back called Formula One PowerBrokers, or something like that, Bernie and his army of lawyers tried to stop it from being published.

I remember reading up on Nigel Mansell's opinion on Prost and Senna, he basically said Schumacher was so good because he was a bit of Prost and Senna rolled into one. (FYI Mansell didn't like Prost and went on for some time to comment on his time at Ferrari).

Anyway, back to my point, Nigel was telling the author of this book his opinion of Senna, something Senna said to him on the podium one time, Nigel had won a race, Senna was 2nd or 3rd, as Nigel is on the top step Senna said to him, "Wonderful feeling isn't it Nigel? You never want to let it go, now you know why I'm such at @sshole out on the track."

Senna knew he was about to have his @ss handed to him on a plate by the young German, he killed himself trying to stay ahead of Schumacher. If you ask me, Senna would have prefferred it that way...

You are ignorant and twisted.

No, I just have my own opinion on things. Sid Watkins, moments before Senna's crash, watching those two go for it, said between clenched teeth "There's going to be a huge f*cking off any second now..."

[McLaren Fan]

Your opinion is gibberish, for it ignores important facts and other key information.

[deMuRe]

Your opinion is gibberish, for it ignores important facts and other key information.

Be that it may, it's still my opinion...

I don't want to seem disrespectful to Senna's accident, but from what I've read on him I'm of the opinion he'd rather die on top, doing something he loves, as opposed to dealing with the prospect of being beaten..

[bud]

Your opinion is gibberish, for it ignores important facts and other key information.

Be that it may, it's still my opinion...

I don't want to seem disrespectful to Senna's accident, but from what I've read on him I'm of the opinion he'd rather die on top, doing something he loves, as opposed to dealing with the prospect of being beaten..

read his biography then you wouldnt think that!

and ill say it again in 94 Schumi only ended up beating Senna's team mate by 1 point. what makes you think Senna wouldnt have been further ahead of Hill come the last round in Adelaide Schumi wouldnt have had to hit anyone then