FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[CookinFlat6]

We did see Alonso and Hamilton in the same team already, all we know from that is that Lewis outqualified and out raced Alonso from the first corner of the first race, Alonso got very emotional, a 100 mill fine was paid, and Alonso ran away

Since then only one driver has progressed forward with his results and political and team building prospects

With Alonso almost certainly mustering his remaining forces for a last ditch stand in the seat that was rejected by the first choice occupant Lewis, the question remains - what excuse has allowed the more talented Alonso to yield on and off track to the inferior talented Hamilton.

We all know Hamiltons weaknesses, emotional, unfocused, eats tyres, not very cerebral, interestingly no one seems to be able to pinpoint Alonsos nemesis beyond being the most complete and talented driver

Surely its not more complicated or hidden away than Lewis' weaknesses such as celebrity focus???

It cannot be luck or opportunity as NO ONE spends 5 years with the team;
spending the most money
receiving the most prize money
having a free extra payment enough to run a whole team to allow them to compete against companies struggling to buy engines,
having a veto on rules
having a veto on the MANAGEMENT of FOM
having their ex TP at the FIA
with the most experience and longest history
with their own engine making facilities AND a history of making F1 engines

and guaranteed a contractual sidekick driver providing grid places, tows and pulling over on track
and getting the highest wage
and having the biggest sponsor by turnover promising to follow him for 10 years
and having a veto on teammates
and having the whole team run around him

no one spends 5 years with these privileges and then complains about nothing going his way

Yet the superior talented Alonso has completely under achieved, but no one knows why?????

He is the most focused driver on the grid, no celebrity distractions etc

YET it remains a mystery why he is such a (relative) loser

[overboost]

We can only compare wins as teammates

Please cookin this contrived and meaningless 'metric' is no more than a feeble attempt to try and find a way around Vettel's superior statistics

cookin gets it wrong yet again.

Yup, you are absolutely right, race wins in identical cars is a meaningless statistic

and a GoPro camera caused MS' accident

And you hit the nail right on the head by declaring that teams developed their own engines during the V8 era

And yes MS DID develop the 2014 car in 2012 by testing parts DURING the races

and yes you are correct that everyone hates Tiger Woods, and that he destroyed billions in sponsor share value and thats why he is only number 1 on the 2014 endorsements list having breached the 1 billion mark

and all the toys come out!

Anyway the best metric to compare teammates imo are full season head to head race results ie who finishes ahead on track. Head to head qually is also a good measure.

[sagi58]

Since we like statistics so much, let's take a look at the last three years
to see how the TPs voted and the percentage of points received.

 wrote:">F1 team bosses vote Lewis Hamilton as best driver of 2014
1. LEWIS HAMILTON (194 points)
2. FERNANDO ALONSO (155 points)
3. DANIEL RICCIARDO (135 points)
4. VALTTERI BOTTAS (119 points)
5. NICO ROSBERG (115 points)
6. FELIPE MASSA (55 points)
7. SEBASTIAN VETTEL (53 points)
8. JULES BIANCHI (44 points)
9. JENSON BUTTON (40 points)
10. DANIIL KVYAT (28 points)

# of Team Principals 11 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1111
Hamilton (WDC): 17.5%
Alonso: 14% (-3.5%)
Vettel: 5% (-12.5%)

 wrote:">Formula 1 team bosses vote Sebastian Vettel as best driver for 2013
1 Sebastian Vettel 248
2 Fernando Alonso 213
3 Kimi Raikkonen 158
4 Lewis Hamilton 117
5 Nico Rosberg 95
6 Romain Grosjean 76
7 Nico Hulkenberg 68
8 Mark Webber 66
9 Jenson Button 24
10 Felipe Massa 14

# of Team Principals 11 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1111

Vettel (WDC): 22%
Alonso: 19% (-3%)
Hamilton: 10.5% (11.5%)

 wrote:">Formula 1 team bosses vote Fernando Alonso as best driver of 2012
1. Fernando Alonso 269
2. Sebastian Vettel 198
3. Lewis Hamilton 177
4. Kimi Raikkonen 176
5. Jenson Button 104
6. Mark Webber 66
7. Nico Hulkenberg 50
8. Nico Rosberg 30
9. Sergio Perez 30
10. Felipe Massa 27

# of Team Principals 12 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1212

Alonso: 22%
Vettel (WDC): 16% WDC (-6%)
Hamilton: 15% (-7%)

[sagi58]

Those numbers tell us that, per the Team Principals, Alonso is the best current driver, for a number of reasons.

* Alonso has been voted one of the top two for the past three years.
* Alonso has lost out the top spot by less than 5% of the points allotted.
* Alonso has been voted top driver, in spite of not being WDC.
* Alonso has been voted second, in spite of not being runner up WDC.

[CookinFlat6]

That probably explains why he was rejected by 6 teams last year and in his career has managed to get sacked by Renault (twice), Mclaren (once so far) and Ferrari

Ferrari, RBR, Lotus, Williams, Force India and Merc all thought he was too good to employ for 2015

(perhaps they want a driver who can test V6 turbos parts during V8 races

[CookinFlat6]

Since we like statistics so much, let's take a look at the last three years
to see how the TPs voted and the percentage of points received.

# of Team Principals 11 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1111
Hamilton (WDC): 17.5%
Alonso: 14% (-3.5%)
Vettel: 5% (-12.5%)

I like space travel a lot, but I am not so thick that I would start pretending I know who to make it work

10 TPs voted in 2014
# of Team Principals 10 X (25 + 18 + 15 + 12 + 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 + 1) total points awarded: 1010
Hamilton (WDC): 19%
Alonso: 15.3% (-4%)

So I wont bother to continue any simple arithmetic as i am sure it should be obvious even to boycott that a full wit is always better than half and i will happily leave you two to combine forces to discuss the merits of MS' hospital bedside engine design setup

[Hammer278]

and all the toys come out!

Anyway the best metric to compare teammates imo are full season head to head race results ie who finishes ahead on track. Head to head qually is also a good measure.

Really? Are we saying its still a measure for today? Lack of basic understanding of the sport today I assume. Is qualifying really a metric anymore? When the real measure is now on who gets the advantage when it counts - on race day and thus, setting the car up for the race rather than gunning for a pole position trophy.

[myownalias]

We did see Alonso and Hamilton in the same team already, all we know from that is that Lewis outqualified and out raced Alonso from the first corner of the first race, Alonso got very emotional, a 100 mill fine was paid, and Alonso ran away

Since then only one driver has progressed forward with his results and political and team building prospects...

</snip>

You can talk down Alonso as much as you want, but his results while at Ferrari were not bad by anyone's expectation, see below (in comparison to Hamilton).

2009 ALO 9th, HAM 5th
2010 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2011 ALO 4th, HAM 5th
2012 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2013 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2014 ALO 6th, HAM 1st

If it wasn't for Adrian Newey's all dominant blown diffuser Red Bull, Alonso would be a five time world drivers champion.

And seriously you are comparing the two drivers from 8 years ago to the drivers they are right now; both are better, more mature drivers, a very different story!

Furthermore, why are we comparing what TP's think of drivers? it's just their opinion, like one of us having an opinion or a journalists opinion, it's WDC points that count, not TP allocated points.

[What's Burning?]

^^ that's an excellent point, not sure why much effort goes into these comparisons. In the same timeframe, Alsonso had number one status, in a team where Massa was being used as a guided missile against Hamilton's car. Meanwhile Hammy was in a team where the TP was absconding behind the paddock to fantasize about giving fellatio to his disturbingly good looking driver. So much so they threw away at least two championship trying to figure out why Button could never get the right amount of rear grip while Hamilton was consistently putting the same car on the podium.

Four pages to decide that there's no way to ever get a rel consensus because of the nature of being a fan. I'll just sit and wait through the season like I did last year and come back to this thread in 2016 when there's another championship and 20 more race results to be awarded. The stats will make things clearer then.

[CookinFlat6]

You can talk down Alonso as much as you want, but his results while at Ferrari were not bad by anyone's expectation, see below (in comparison to Hamilton).

2009 ALO 9th, HAM 5th
2010 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2011 ALO 4th, HAM 5th
2012 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2013 ALO 2nd, HAM 4th
2014 ALO 6th, HAM 1st

talk down to second best? His results since hey were teammates are not bad, but no cigar, for whatever reason since then Lewis has more poles, more wins, and 2 WDCs. These quoted results are just not as good as Hamiltons, and lets remember that those results were gained with a number 2 driver working for him, and include illegal results such as crashgate and FIFTY gate

If it wasn't for Adrian Newey's all dominant blown diffuser Red Bull, Alonso would be a five time world drivers champion.

All I wanted was the excuse/reason Alonso - said by some to be the most talented - his career results were inferior to Lewis in twice the time. So at least you appear to be actually proposing a reason, that Newey built a better car - still doesnt explain why Lewis has better results. Doesnt explain why the Ferrari was a match for Neweys car rite up to the final race in 3 of those seasons. Doesnt explain why the rookie Petrovs prevented Alonso winning a WDC and nothing to do with Newey

And seriously you are comparing the two drivers from 8 years ago to the drivers they are right now; both are better, more mature drivers, a very different story!

Any forecasting of the future that doesnt look at the past is just blind gambling. They are both better, both older, one way older than the other, both at different points in their performance cycle. And finally one seems to have recently started to get nearer his peak, whilst the results point to an inverse for the other

Furthermore, why are we comparing what TP's think of drivers? it's just their opinion, like one of us having an opinion or a journalists opinion, it's WDC points that count, not TP allocated points.

Why are we comparing what TPs think? because its their insider informed opinion, likely less bigotted than some journo and some of us on here.
So its WDC points that count? Nope its WDCS that count

And since Hamiltons started in F1 he has won 2 to Alonsos 0, and outdrove him in his rookie year

Surely something has let Alonso down, just like celebrity focus restricted Hamilton to just 2 WDCs, what has restricted the more talented Alonso in that time? Why did 6 teams reject him if he is the best driver on the grid?

This for me is an interesting question, re interesting than Lewis' celebrity focus and gf, dogs, earring etc

[RyRy]

If a team favours one driver over the other the outcome will be obvious.

Look at Schumacher vs his teammates, look at Vettel vs his team mates, look at Alonso vs his teammates...

All have what we think as stand out performances but really they're not because the car is setup for one driver instead of two.

That's why Ferrari this year should be interesting because they both like the same sort of car.

[CookinFlat6]

Every single season Alonso has raced, he has required points gifted directly from his teammate, except ofcourse the season he was beaten by the rookie Hamilton. And then we have seen his teammates dedicate their entire race to 'messing up' his competitors races, the extreme exampl of this was having the teammate crash in the 3rd lap to gift Alonso a fe extra points. Massa ofcourse also sacrificed his own race a couple of times to physically crash into Lewis, but generally was used as a water carrier to hold up and spoil.
Who can forget the famous words captured on radio of the Ferrari number 2 standing orders - 'go on destroy Hamiltons race, thats a good boy'

Its kinda hard to then compare Alonsos position at the end of these seasons with someone like Lewis contending with a WDC teammate with at least equal opportunities.

Whats incredible is how Hamilton still managed to win more races, poles and even a title during this period despite the lack of focus and less talent

Good thing is Alonso finally has a chance to show what a good car developer he is by focussing enough to turn around the mess left when Lewis left

[sagi58]

In the words of wise one:

[overboost]

and all the toys come out!

Anyway the best metric to compare teammates imo are full season head to head race results ie who finishes ahead on track. Head to head qually is also a good measure.

Really? Are we saying its still a measure for today? Lack of basic understanding of the sport today I assume. Is qualifying really a metric anymore? When the real measure is now on who gets the advantage when it counts - on race day and thus, setting the car up for the race rather than gunning for a pole position trophy.

Sure it is. They even offer a trophy for the best qualifier, or fastest man if you will!

You are right though in the aspect that today's , imo, flawed rules have too frequently made race day a too much a fuel economy battle and it allows those who are not the best qualifiers to set up for fuel savings and be successful on Sunday. As well many races are rather dull as for most of the race the drivers are operating to a fuel consumption # and hoping for a little bit extra can be saved for a short attack at the end of the race.

[CookinFlat6]

In the words of wise one:

Perhaps you could persuade the wise one to sign up and come to have a go - at debating F1 facts, maybe bring some much needed philosophical rendering of the Alonso connundrum