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#275187
I dont like to cross-generation compare drivers, but theres no reason Vettel cant be as good as Senna, if not better, i personally rate 4 drivers above Senna, Clark, Prost, Schumacher, sorry three, Sennas the fourth one.

Overrated by a country mile and i dont care who knows it.

Dont get me wrong, blistering pace never seen before, and wet weather skills like god, but wasnt particularly strong at other categories at all.

Vettel though his car is making him look amazing lets be fair, already won in 2008 like it was nobodies business, personally i think though so many people hate him he will never be rated as such, that Hamilton is one of the best drivers ever in F1. Ever.
#275196
I have no doubt he'll be looked back on as a legend. In time to come, the fan boys will have moved on to newer drivers, and all that will be left of the past is memories of victories, championships and results.

Vettel has already earned a good enough reputation to see him up there with the best. No fear about that.
#275210
I don't think he'll win it in Singapore. :D:eek::pray:

Have to agree, albeit more due to the fact that I see Alonso take a podium than Vettel finishing too low.


:yes:

But it would just be nice not to have to see a season of such great, fantastic on-track action be concluded so soon
#275213
I don't think he'll win it in Singapore. :D:eek::pray:

Have to agree, albeit more due to the fact that I see Alonso take a podium than Vettel finishing too low.


:yes:

But it would just be nice not to have to see a season of such great, fantastic on-track action be concluded so soon


Well, whether he wins now, or in brazil, he's won. There is no sign of engine or gear box failures like last year, so at this point, it is a fight for 2nd place, and I'm ok with that. :) Because the battle for 2nd is EXTREMELY heated. As is the constructors spots in general.
#275215
I don't think he'll win it in Singapore. :D:eek::pray:

Have to agree, albeit more due to the fact that I see Alonso take a podium than Vettel finishing too low.


:yes:

But it would just be nice not to have to see a season of such great, fantastic on-track action be concluded so soon


The racing would still continue if Vettel wins the championship in Singapore. There is still the fight for 2nd and there is the prospect of real balls out hairy arsed racing once the pressure of the championship has been lifted.

P1 in the championship could be over soon but the racing is far from over.
#275216
I don't think he'll win it in Singapore. :D:eek::pray:

Have to agree, albeit more due to the fact that I see Alonso take a podium than Vettel finishing too low.


:yes:

But it would just be nice not to have to see a season of such great, fantastic on-track action be concluded so soon


Well, whether he wins now, or in brazil, he's won. There is no sign of engine or gear box failures like last year, so at this point, it is a fight for 2nd place, and I'm ok with that. :) Because the battle for 2nd is EXTREMELY heated. As is the constructors spots in general.


Oh aye, Seb's definitely won the whole thing, it's just a question of when. Hopefully not too soon, but whenever he eventually does it, he deserves it.

2nd spot is anyone's. :D
#275243
In the end, it is only results that matter. Sure a few things may be remembered, like Schuey parking his car to screw up a rival....but results trump all. Schuey is the legend he is because he won. Sure a fast car makes winning possible but one only need look at teammates in order to see that a fast car ensures nothing.

Seb has grown a tremendous amount right before our viewing eyes. From the rash, but fast kid...to the fast, but steady champion. He doesn't make the mistakes that have plagued lessor drivers. He has even learned to handle the press better than in the past....not inserting his foot in mouth as often as some of his rivals. I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again....but we are all watching a legend in the making. As long as Red Bull doesn't file bankruptcy in the near future...and as long as Newey appreciates being able to spend gobs of money....Vettel will keep winning. I was certain we would never see another Schumacher like domination....but now I'm not nearly as certain of that. There are drivers out there who can certainly compete with Seb on a skills and precision (few mistakes) level. It does take both blinding speed and lack of mistakes to compete over an entire season however. Alonso likely could. Rossberg perhaps. Michael...uh..maybe. Some of the youngsters may well develop into real heroes but the question is can those others also show up with a car capable of beating Newey? Now there is the rub. The team needs a driver with blinding speed AND precision....but they also need the car...and Newey has proven very difficult to beat.
#275244
Not taking anything away from Seb but more an observation for anyone in that position, but when you have th car advantage over your rivals and you have a different rival finishing second behind you every race there is less pressure and no need to push or over drive thus less mistakes. This goes for every racing category even one make races, car advantage can be had with better engineers.
#275248
In the end, it is only results that matter. Sure a few things may be remembered, like Schuey parking his car to screw up a rival....but results trump all. Schuey is the legend he is because he won. Sure a fast car makes winning possible but one only need look at teammates in order to see that a fast car ensures nothing.

Seb has grown a tremendous amount right before our viewing eyes. From the rash, but fast kid...to the fast, but steady champion. He doesn't make the mistakes that have plagued lessor drivers. He has even learned to handle the press better than in the past....not inserting his foot in mouth as often as some of his rivals. I've said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again....but we are all watching a legend in the making. As long as Red Bull doesn't file bankruptcy in the near future...and as long as Newey appreciates being able to spend gobs of money....Vettel will keep winning. I was certain we would never see another Schumacher like domination....but now I'm not nearly as certain of that. There are drivers out there who can certainly compete with Seb on a skills and precision (few mistakes) level. It does take both blinding speed and lack of mistakes to compete over an entire season however. Alonso likely could. Rossberg perhaps. Michael...uh..maybe. Some of the youngsters may well develop into real heroes but the question is can those others also show up with a car capable of beating Newey? Now there is the rub. The team needs a driver with blinding speed AND precision....but they also need the car...and Newey has proven very difficult to beat.


Not taking anything away from Seb but more an observation for anyone in that position, but when you have th car advantage over your rivals and you have a different rival finishing second behind you every race there is less pressure and no need to push or over drive thus less mistakes. This goes for every racing category even one make races, car advantage can be had with better engineers.


I think it's a combination of things. 'A clearly better car' usually comes by every few years -McLaren '98, Ferrari early '00s, Renault and McLaren '05, Brawn GP, RB7- but the difference is made by whether you have a decent, a good or a great driver in that car. Consider 1998, where Hakkinen was able to keep the McLaren ahead of Schumacher's improving speed as the season progressed, while Coulthard was nowhere near the German in the end. Consider '02, where Schumacher was miles and miles ahead, and Barichello finished second in the championship by just a few points, and not even second in '00, '01 and '03. Consider the Renault and McLaren in 2005, where Alonso was miles ahead, yet his team mate finished behind Schumacher in his abysmal F2005. And now you see it again, with Vettel ready to wrap up the championship while Webber has never looked solid in 2nd place in the championship, and is even 4th now.

Were these cars seconds faster every lap, as was sometimes the case in the 50's - 80's? No, they're usually just a few tenths faster, and sometimes actually not the fastest car out there. But a great driver is driving it, taking the car to the limit lap after lap, keeping their head cool and not wasting any time on mistakes. The RB7 has often been just 0.2 faster in qualifying, and in some races many considered the McLaren to be the faster car on sunday, but Vettel (pretty much) never set a foot wrong, and dominated because he is able to turn out blistering performances without ever letting down.

That's the difference between a great driver in a great car, and a good/average driver in a great car. The 1997 Williams was so much faster than the Ferrari, but with 'only' a good and an average driver, Schumacher was taking it down to the last race. The 2005 Renault was blisteringly fast, but with a good/average second driver, there was only one Renault dominating. Look at 2009, where alas Barichello again showed he does not have what it takes to make a good car a dominating one. (yes, the RB was often on par/sometimes faster in the second part, but that was way to late for RB)

That consistency in always performing on your top is what enabled Kimi to take the title in 2007 (being more consistent than the McLaren drivers), and that's what will enable any extremely talented driver in the future to 'dominate' given the right circumstances, but that is all down to a driver being ready for it when that chance presents itself, when they find themselves in a car marginally but regularly faster than the rest. While the ability to drive at the top is much down to the car, the ability to dominate is much more so down to the driver. The Ferrari F2002 and F2004 were very fast cars, Schumacher was a dominating driver. The Renault R25 was a very fast car, Alonso was a dominating driver. The Red Bull RB7 is a very fast car, Vettel is a dominating driver.
#275249
A car that has been on pole every race and Sebs taken that car to 1st or 2nd every race thus far bar one is a pretty dominant performance. To say it's all driver because of his team mate is a toughy. would you be saying that if his team mate was Hamilton or Alonso? Who I feel would be doing just as good a job as Seb with the RB7.
But talking about mistakes there is always less chance of mistakes when you start from the front and lead from the front. And I think you'll find the average pole gap to McLaren would be around the 4 to 5 tenths mark. And I don't buy McLarens claims of faster race pace at some races either, unless they won! For Monza their drivers were 1-2 in fastest laps but 2 and 4 in the results. Seb might have had the speed to match or better their times but was so far ahead of P2 he just needed to maintain not push. This can be said for other races this year.
All in all ask any driver on the grid about which car they could drive if they had a choice and it would be the RB7!
#275310
A car that has been on pole every race and Sebs taken that car to 1st or 2nd every race thus far bar one is a pretty dominant performance. To say it's all driver because of his team mate is a toughy. would you be saying that if his team mate was Hamilton or Alonso? Who I feel would be doing just as good a job as Seb with the RB7.
But talking about mistakes there is always less chance of mistakes when you start from the front and lead from the front. And I think you'll find the average pole gap to McLaren would be around the 4 to 5 tenths mark. And I don't buy McLarens claims of faster race pace at some races either, unless they won! For Monza their drivers were 1-2 in fastest laps but 2 and 4 in the results. Seb might have had the speed to match or better their times but was so far ahead of P2 he just needed to maintain not push. This can be said for other races this year.
All in all ask any driver on the grid about which car they could drive if they had a choice and it would be the RB7!

Well, choosing not to 'buy' what most (media, other teams and drivers) agree on is of course your own choice, but doesn't explain some of the McLaren's charges from far behind.

I'm not saying it's all driver, what I'm saying is, it's NOT all car. If it was all car, Webber would be well clear of Alonso, Button and Hamilton.
Like the examples I showed, just having a fast car is not enough; it wasn't enough for Villeneuve to dominate in, it wasn't enough for Barichello and Fisischella to dominate in. A dominant car without a dominant driver does not generate dominant results, so saying this year's domination is not to Vettel's credit is just ignorant.
#275461
" a dominant car without a dominant driver wont get dominant results"


Bollocks. I suggest someone trawls through the 60 year history of F1 before making such statements.

If it werent for having Prost as his teammate, Damon Hill would have wiped the floor with Senna of all people in 93, as a rookie, the car was just that much better.

He was a good champion but not a great one, and he made it look easy.

Every driver that makes it into F1 has a vast career of motor racing, they know braking points lines etc. If their car happens to be dominant, theyll drive it just to its normal lap time and dominate everyone, be it much greater downforce or engine power.
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