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#201932
Going into lap 40 of the Turkish Grand Prix - the lap Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel collided - team boss Christian Horner instructed Webber's race engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to tell Webber to allow Vettel past. Pilbeam could not bring himself to pass the message on. (Autosport magazine)


-.-

I'm glad Ciaron didn't. I really am. At least we know there's one person on Mark's side...


This recent rule that allows the media access to all radio chatter is brilliant. Teams are getting away with less and less these days.

I sincerly hope that story isn't true though. Aside from direct team orders being banned, Ciaron would be right not to tell Mark.
#201963
Hope they dont sack him or do something else bad to him. I have no respect for Red Bull and wouldnt put anything past them now. At least mark knows he can trust his engineer.....for now.
#201968
So what's the penalty for a team found to be giving orders? In this case since they weren't followed I would guess there would be no consequences other than the one RB has already paid losing a 1, 2 finish.

It's kind of silly though since all it would do is have teams radio coded messages.
#201991
Wasn't McLaren practically giving team orders in Turkey, as we heard the footage where Lewis asks if Jenson will pass him or not if he saves fuel. Team says "no" but can they actually tell such things?
#201993
Wasn't McLaren practically giving team orders in Turkey, as we heard the footage where Lewis asks if Jenson will pass him or not if he saves fuel. Team says "no" but can they actually tell such things?


Theoretically they shouldnt. But its only the Mclaren fans making a big fuss when these things happen in other teams...
Everybody gives team orders, some are reasonable others maybe not. But they all do it.
#202033
Did anybody see the video at formula1.com about Turkey race where there's a sequence of Lewis' radio chat with the team. In that video before the red bull crash someone says to vettel "use your overtake button to get good speed at the straight" or something like that. Has there been any talk about red bulls' "overtake button" ? :D
#202036
Did anybody see the video at formula1.com about Turkey race where there's a sequence of Lewis' radio chat with the team. In that video before the red bull crash someone says to vettel "use your overtake button to get good speed at the straight" or something like that. Has there been any talk about red bulls' "overtake button" ? :D


all teams have a button that turns the engine revs up to help make a pass.
#202040
No arguing over who's fault, but Vettel gained .4 seconds BEFORE Webber was asked to turn down his mixture,


I must have been watching a different race, got any proof?


I muct have also been watching a different race. Horner has said Webber was losing .18 a lap AFTER turning his fuel mixture down. From watching the live timing I can tell you they were both going blow for blow from after the pitstop through lap 38. Webber, Vettel and Hamilton were all trading fastest laps up untill that point.
#202081
Wasn't McLaren practically giving team orders in Turkey, as we heard the footage where Lewis asks if Jenson will pass him or not if he saves fuel. Team says "no" but can they actually tell such things?


I think its a fine line between team orders and team strategy. To me saying hold station, protect our one/two is team strategy, doesnt matter who is in front, you hold station. Thats what McLaren did.
saying we have a one two but we want the drivers to switch places , to me thats team orders, thats favouring one driver massively. Thats what Red bull did.
#202082
..saying we have a one two but we want the drivers to switch places , to me thats team orders, thats favouring one driver massively. Thats what Red bull did.

Well, people keep on saying that Vettel is the new Michael Schumacher... guess the favouritism proves that... ahem... :P
#202083
..saying we have a one two but we want the drivers to switch places , to me thats team orders, thats favouring one driver massively. Thats what Red bull did.

Well, people keep on saying that Vettel is the new Michael Schumacher... guess the favouritism proves that... ahem... :P


Yep. He has most things in place. Now he just has to drive like him, he has a way to go there!! :hehe::hehe:
#202085
I think its a fine line between team orders and team strategy. To me saying hold station, protect our one/two is team strategy, doesnt matter who is in front, you hold station. Thats what McLaren did.
saying we have a one two but we want the drivers to switch places , to me thats team orders, thats favouring one driver massively. Thats what Red bull did.


:yes:
Except for the Red Bull part... I dont think they really did it. hehe They maybe wanted it to happen, but it didnt et done :) in fact, even if they did wanted it to happen i think it was reasonable to think if Webber was the one holding Vettel then he should have made some way. I'm not too sure as to why Webber would hav been slowing him down... but there was a threat from Lewis and Vettel was being held up. MAYBE it was reasonable to let Vettel develop his own pace.

But yes, it is very important to realise what is the reasonable part of a team strategy. But in the end (when there is a clear fight for the championship) it all becomes team orders. And it should. Otherwise, why have teams?!
#202088
Well this is what I think happenned. Only my view mind, but it answers a few questions. Im talking about the red bull crash. Ok here goes:-

I think towards the end the red bull powere that be decided(for whatever reason) that they wanted Vettel to overtake Mark and take the win. They told the engineers of each driver that this is what should happen and please inform their drivers. Vettel's engineer informed him. marks engineer didnt-he couldn bring himself to do that. So now we have Vettel expecting to be allowed past (this would account for the over aggresive turn in when Mark didnt make it easy, and it would account for the loony gesture). It would also account for Horner mouthing "MOVE" into his screen, and it would account for the immediate blame being placed on mark by all the red bull team. he was supposed to move over. And it would also account for the cuddling of Vettel on the pit wall instead of tellin him he'd been a pr!ck.It was arranged for him, mark should have moved. Mark knowing nothing of any such 'arrangement' held and defended his line.
To me that fits the reactions of all concerned. Whilst it explains Vettels reactions after the crash(they told me I could go past!)It doesnt excuse the fact that he would accept a win in such a fashion.The most confusing and dismaying part of all this was red bull's reaction to the incident, but this would explain it, they were expecting a done deal! :thumbdown: Bad form red Bull!! how many suppoters have you just lost around the world? Especially in australia!

Be interested in anyone else's views on this.
#202093
Well this is what I think happenned. Only my view mind, but it answers a few questions. Im talking about the red bull crash. Ok here goes:-

I think towards the end the red bull powere that be decided(for whatever reason) that they wanted Vettel to overtake Mark and take the win. They told the engineers of each driver that this is what should happen and please inform their drivers. Vettel's engineer informed him. marks engineer didnt-he couldn bring himself to do that. So now we have Vettel expecting to be allowed past (this would account for the over aggresive turn in when Mark didnt make it easy, and it would account for the loony gesture). It would also account for Horner mouthing "MOVE" into his screen, and it would account for the immediate blame being placed on mark by all the red bull team. he was supposed to move over. And it would also account for the cuddling of Vettel on the pit wall instead of tellin him he'd been a pr!ck.It was arranged for him, mark should have moved. Mark knowing nothing of any such 'arrangement' held and defended his line.
To me that fits the reactions of all concerned. Whilst it explains Vettels reactions after the crash(they told me I could go past!)It doesnt excuse the fact that he would accept a win in such a fashion.The most confusing and dismaying part of all this was red bull's reaction to the incident, but this would explain it, they were expecting a done deal! :thumbdown: Bad form red Bull!! how many suppoters have you just lost around the world? Especially in australia!

Be interested in anyone else's views on this.


I guess its all a matter of knowing WHY was Vettel faster than Mark (we know Mark was on fuel save, but was he really?). In the case that he was really on fuel save, and not Vettel, then a strategy (of allowing Vettel past) made sense, given Lewis was pushing both of them (ie had Lewis got past Vettel and with Mark on fuel save, then Lewis could have easily taken the win). So basically, to me it all depends on the real reason Vettel was faster than Mark. As I saw it in the race, i simply thought vettel was faster and thats it.

In the case of Mclaren it could have been similar. Mclaren told Lewis he wasnt going to be taken by Jenson. But when jenson approached, Lewis could have gotten all hot headed and taken themselves out, either on Jenson's pass or on the re-pass. And there would have been a full blame mess (ie 'loco' gesturing and so on) because of the confusing team signals. But for example, we dont know for sure what was Jenson's fuel condition (even after their passes). The difference was, that both Mclaren drivers weren't under pressure (from a competitor) when the incident happened, and of course that they made their passes very well.

Both of the incidents COULD be due to team strategy, or team orders... depending on some of the little things we dont know.
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