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[Hammer278]

I dont get the reason for you guys to bring up the Lewis-Heikki episode when it has been hashed out over and over again in this thread in regards to WHY the scenario is different. But the only reply to our posts is 'McLaren employed team orders as well'.

This is a team sport, and the interest of the team comes first. This statement definitely holds water, but the FACT is each team has TWO drivers. Not 1. McLaren were not 1-2 in Hockenheim, and Lewis was in position to get more points for the team, and there was a difficult situation where Heikki, his teammate, was stopping the progress of Lewis in order to attain more points for the team.

Once a team are in position to achieve their maximum (which is what they aim for every race), it is only ethical and legal (nowadays) for them to let the 2 drivers race! McLaren were 1-2 in Turkey, and no matter what fuel save fuel burn order they gave both drivers did race to an extent. You can argue that they might have coded later on "fuel save" to hold back Jenson from attacking Lewis but Jenson was well and truly beaten by Lewis up to that point (Lewis was in front the whole way). Team orders were in play but in interest of the team not for a particular driver.

The reason people get enraged with what Ferrari do is letting a driver win when he didn't f****** deserve the win. Alonso was beaten of the line (no matter what the circumstance is) by his teammate and he was unable to overtake. If he was so much faster, then he could have simply attacked and overtaken his teammate. For God's sake there was 20 laps still left in the race! Team orders were in play for interest of the team and the driver. This would be where the PR line is well and truly crossed.

If we defend this crap, anytime when we have a 1-2 in front, let's say from the very 1st lap and they are charging away, what's the point of watching the race?

[PartsaS]

If we defend this crap, anytime when we have a 1-2 in front, let's say from the very 1st lap and they are charging away, what's the point of watching the race?

well said mate, am tired too about bringing up the Lewis-Heikki episode over and over again when it was clearly a totaly different situation. and tottaly different behaviour by the team.

we must not forget that McLaren could have win the championship in 2007 if had given the drivers team orders to benefit one of them but both men were given equal treatment and the duo finished one point behind Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen in the drivers' championship.
That is a Proof that McLaren is playing fair... or at least more fair than ferrari who has cheated way more many times, in the past, than all the other teams did together.

would it be ok with all you ferrari diffenders if McLaren and Red Bull hadn't put within fights this year at all and had acted as ferrari did last sunday? Or if all slower drivers pulled aside for the quicker ones to pass ( as alonso would like as he cannot risk an overtake)? I guess f1 wouldn't be exciting anymore.

So see the facts and stop whining anymore, ferrari was found guilty (by everyone except some ferrari fans) and thats it

You are going to be disappointed. They will not get any further penalty, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fine is removed.

move on and stop talking s*** about McLaren; when Hamilton lied they got a very tough punishment but when Massa, Alonso and their hole team lied you want them to get away so simple? and don't tell me we can't prove that, they cannot hide behind their finger. They are not talking to 5 year old kids, what kind of behaviour is that anyway? CAME ON......

[bud]

You are going to be disappointed. They will not get any further penalty, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fine is removed.

move on and stop talking s*** about McLaren; when Hamilton lied they got a very tough punishment but when Massa, Alonso and their hole team lied you want them to get away so simple? and don't tell me we can't prove that, they cannot hide behind their finger. They are not talking to 5 year old kids, what kind of behaviour is that anyway? CAME ON......

[samie]

The irony of your recreation is that even with the coded message, JB still passed and then was overtaken back by LH giving us the second most memorable moment of that race and a moment that will be in all of the year end wrapup clips.

We didn't get that from Ferrari... and really really hurts me emotionally

That is exactly my point, it wasn't ferraris fault it was Massa who chickened out of the dog fight with the excuse of the message. He could have at least attemted to give a fight, he just hit on the brakes. So lame, now everybody is on ferrari's back. Lame Massa.

[samie]

I'm not so convinced Alonso would have won the race without the favour. His best chance to legitimately pass Massa came after he announced "this is ridiculous", but the only rediculous thing I could see was his attempt that followed. As Brundel pointed out, he blew his chance when he had it. But I guess overtaking is extra difficult whilst complaining on the radio. He should get his priorities right, does he really want to be remembered as the dullest F1 driver?

Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Vettel anyone of the going faster than you and a sec away would be a nightmare. Ii nightmare Massa would not pass these days. These guys are nasty drivers.

[samie]

Is it not? Alonso quite quickly pulled out better than 3 seconds gap as the team requested and then dialed back to hold that gap. Massa finished 4.1 seconds back...with Vettel one second behind him and Vettel turning faster laps. One second, in F1 with modern aero is well within striking distance.

Alonso had the incentive to push to 'prove' that he had been faster behind Massa. Why would Massa have continued to push once he had let Alonso by? - he had nothing to gain by it. Vettel didn't challenge Massa. You're twisting the facts to back up your version of events and ignoring the fact that Massa and Alonso were swapping fastest laps during the entire race - including the stint on the prime tyre.[/quote]

If mass had kept within 1 sec of Alonso he would have proved that he is as good as alonso. Massa had his chance he knew what would happen if fernando came close. Should have never let alonso near, should have never let alonso get 4 seconds on him. 4 secs its a lot of time these days, its a world. He just could not keep up safely, he has fear inside him. Not the pilot he used to be.

[Ineluke]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.

People on this forum need to get over it. It's not about FA, FM, LH or JB, it's about the TEAM. They make the decisions.
How many points did FM win for Ferrari this season compared to FA?
FM will always be a 2nd driver no matter what.

It is always enjoyable reading posts from LH lambs attacking Ferrari and FA

I would say allow team orders and stop this farce of coded messages. Teams are in F1 for the money whether we like it or not.

Well! I am still waiting for this link to the driver mansript that confirms what you wrote about Jenson and Hammer278 quoted in bold?
I know and you know he didn't say those words and it's pathetic that you would try and lie just to win a debate that you obviously know nothing about, you must feel like an idiot.
You really thought no one would notice the pathetic lie in you post lol, that's something a kid would do not an adult.
You are best to not comment on the subject and let the adults debate without resorting to blantant lies lol.

[Hammer278]

If mass had kept within 1 sec of Alonso he would have proved that he is as good as alonso. Massa had his chance he knew what would happen if fernando came close. Should have never let alonso near, should have never let alonso get 4 seconds on him. 4 secs its a lot of time these days, its a world. He just could not keep up safely, he has fear inside him. Not the pilot he used to be.

Oh great, the forum Oracle has spoken. Thanks mate.

[Ineluke]

I never thought i would say this about Massa but i really really hope that this gives him the will to hand the rat in the other red car his bottom.
I really can t wait till this weekend even though ill be in thailand. I will be sat in front of that tv all through the quali and prartice and the race.
Go Lewis go Jenson and hit the stinking red rat alonso where it hurts Massa.

[Troyron]

So you know what I write, Ill do it all in capitals.

I dont get the reason for you guys to bring up the Lewis-Heikki episode when it has been hashed out over and over again in this thread in regards to WHY the scenario is different. But the only reply to our posts is 'McLaren employed team orders as well'.

TEAM ORDERS ARE TEAM ORDERS. IT DOES NOT SAY IT IS ALLOW DURING THIS AND THIS SCENARIO. CANT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE CAN SAY ITS OKAY DURING THIS AND THIS SCENARIO, WHEN THE RULE IS STRAIGHT FORWARD.


This is a team sport, and the interest of the team comes first. This statement definitely holds water, but the FACT is each team has TWO drivers. Not 1. McLaren were not 1-2 in Hockenheim, and Lewis was in position to get more points for the team, and there was a difficult situation where Heikki, his teammate, was stopping the progress of Lewis in order to attain more points for the team.

MASSA WAS STOPPING FERRARI BEST CHANCE IN GAINING SOM POINTS FOR THEM TO HAVE THE WINNER OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP. YES IT IS A TEAM SPORT, BUT IT ALSO IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE WORLD CHAMPION. LETS JUST SAY IT WAS A TEAM ORDER, EVEN IF THOSE WORD WERE NOT USED. THE TEAM MAKE THE CALL OF WHAT TO SAY, NOT ALONSO. SO FERRARI MADE A CALL WHATS BEST FOR THEIR TEAM.


Once a team are in position to achieve their maximum (which is what they aim for every race), it is only ethical and legal (nowadays) for them to let the 2 drivers race! McLaren were 1-2 in Turkey, and no matter what fuel save fuel burn order they gave both drivers did race to an extent. You can argue that they might have coded later on "fuel save" to hold back Jenson from attacking Lewis but Jenson was well and truly beaten by Lewis up to that point (Lewis was in front the whole way). Team orders were in play but in interest of the team not for a particular driver.

HAMILTON WAS LEADING/CHASING THE CHAMPIONSHIP, ENSURING HIS TEAMMATE DOES NOT PASS, IS THAT NOT OF THE INTEREST OF A PARTICULAR DRIVER?


The reason people get enraged with what Ferrari do is letting a driver win when he didn't f****** deserve the win. Alonso was beaten of the line (no matter what the circumstance is) by his teammate and he was unable to overtake. If he was so much faster, then he could have simply attacked and overtaken his teammate. For God's sake there was 20 laps still left in the race! Team orders were in play for interest of the team and the driver. This would be where the PR line is well and truly crossed.

AGREE WITH YOU HERE, ALONSO COULD HAVE ATTACKED HIM AS THERE WERE 20 LAPS REMAINING. BUT HE WAS NOT GIVEN THE CHANCE AS FERRARI/MASSA duck UP IN THE WAY THIS WAS HANDLED. SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PROFESINAL IN HOW THEY DID THIS, THEN IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM AS TEAM ORDERS ARE PART OF F1.


If we defend this crap, anytime when we have a 1-2 in front, let's say from the very 1st lap and they are charging away, what's the point of watching the race?

There are still 22 other driver who can pass them.

No, lets just allow team orders once and for all. Most seems to want it and it is used almost every race anyway. All this stuff about its okay here and not there is just rubbish.

[vaptin]

I dont get the reason for you guys to bring up the Lewis-Heikki episode when it has been hashed out over and over again in this thread in regards to WHY the scenario is different. But the only reply to our posts is 'McLaren employed team orders as well'.

This is a team sport, and the interest of the team comes first. This statement definitely holds water, but the FACT is each team has TWO drivers. Not 1. McLaren were not 1-2 in Hockenheim, and Lewis was in position to get more points for the team, and there was a difficult situation where Heikki, his teammate, was stopping the progress of Lewis in order to attain more points for the team.

I don't give a damn about that incident, but only one driver can win the WDC. Ferrari decided (too early IMO) that Massa can't do it and Alonso can.

[McLaren]

The irony of your recreation is that even with the coded message, JB still passed and then was overtaken back by LH giving us the second most memorable moment of that race and a moment that will be in all of the year end wrapup clips.

We didn't get that from Ferrari... and really really hurts me emotionally

That is exactly my point, it wasn't ferraris fault it was Massa who chickened out of the dog fight with the excuse of the message. He could have at least attemted to give a fight, he just hit on the brakes. So lame, now everybody is on ferrari's back. Lame Massa.

What a load of drival.It was team orders why he let him past end of

[vaptin]

Brundel's now written a blog on it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 856345.stm

Formula 1's governing body, the FIA, should immediately assemble all the commissions, councils and empowered people required to cancel regulation 39.1 which prohibits team orders. It is unworkable and largely not policeable.

The fans, media, and sponsors are best placed to firmly control this one with their remote controls, attendance, words, and cash.

There are hundreds of shades of grey around the interpretation of what constitutes team orders and when it is acceptable through the season to start applying them.

But points won at the first race have the same value as those at the last race.

Watching two world-class sportsmen and a team principal, among others, having to fabricate stories around both this regulation and the circumstances of the German Grand Prix was excruciatingly painful and infuriating.

Of course Ferrari wanted Alonso to win the German Grand Prix; it's their only chance of salvaging something from this season.

I would have wanted the same, as would any other leading team on the grid.

So why on earth did Ferrari handle it so badly before, during and after the race? I'm afraid they deserve everything that is thrown at them.

Obviously, they never imagined Massa would be leading from Alonso, although he started on the cleaner side of the grid in third, otherwise they would have pre-empted and choreographed everything so much better. The fans and media are not stupid.

Teams are obliged to run two cars in their fight for drivers' and manufacturers' titles - 24 one-car teams is not practical.

There are any number of ways a driver can be perceived to be assisted or disadvantaged within a team due to testing, parts supply, quality of personnel on each car, tyre and race strategies, fuel loads, pit stops, media releases, psychological and physical support, and many other aspects around running a grand prix car around the globe.

A team operates its two cars in the best manner in order to win one or both titles, and that's the way it is, folks.

I just don't buy the 'what if somebody betted on that' line; people should understand that racing cars have punctures and crashes, or get changed around tactically, before they risk their money.

Later we heard the radio calls followed by the lap 49 of 67 lead swap, plus the slowing down lap and podium procedure. At no time did we read a message that the incident would be investigated by the stewards after the race.

It's not unreasonable to think that the FIA were reacting to the post race furore.

Maybe that's unfair but they have a problem now. The $100,000 fine has been applied so the team are officially guilty of breaching the regulations. Surely the World Council can only add to that penalty at their yet-to-be announced hearing.

FIA president Jean Todt was of course the long-time boss of the Ferrari team, and his son manages Massa, but from the outset of his appointment he removed himself from an official role in any sporting enquiries.

In a few days' time we have the Hungarian GP, and Hockenheim will be an old story until the World Council meets.

[AKR]

In the 2009 WRC Championship Loeb ended up winning the drivers title by 2 points over Ford rival Hirvonen. There was a rally (I cannot remember the exact one although I did watch every single rally in 2009) where Loeb crashed and was out of the points and Hirvonen was leading. Loeb's Citroen was repaired but he was out of the points. All Citroen drivers were then ordered to slow down to allow Citroen's Loeb the highest possible placing. Hirvonen one this rally but Loeb scored valueable points thanks to team orders which is a very normal everyday occurance in the WRC just so you know. These points proved crucial in the end as Loeb won the title in the last rally of the season by a mere 2 points. This team order was allowed in WRC like in all other motor sports and no one including Ford and Hirvonen protested. It is normal to do this. From what I have been reading on this forum mostly, team orders are cheating and shouldn't be used. Thus as a Ford fan in the WRC should I now conclude that Loeb as well is a cheat and shouldn't be WRC champion of 2009 and that in fact it should be Ford's Mirko Hirvonen? Ummm I don't reallyh think so. All have a good day and happy futile arguing among yourselves.

[What's Burning?]

In the 2009 WRC Championship Loeb ended up winning the drivers title by 2 points over Ford rival Hirvonen. There was a rally (I cannot remember the exact one although I did watch every single rally in 2009) where Loeb crashed and was out of the points and Hirvonen was leading. Loeb's Citroen was repaired but he was out of the points. All Citroen drivers were then ordered to slow down to allow Citroen's Loeb the highest possible placing. Hirvonen one this rally but Loeb scored valueable points thanks to team orders which is a very normal everyday occurance in the WRC just so you know. These points proved crucial in the end as Loeb won the title in the last rally of the season by a mere 2 points. This team order was allowed in WRC like in all other motor sports and no one including Ford and Hirvonen protested. It is normal to do this. From what I have been reading on this forum mostly, team orders are cheating and shouldn't be used. Thus as a Ford fan in the WRC should I now conclude that Loeb as well is a cheat and shouldn't be WRC champion of 2009 and that in fact it should be Ford's Mirko Hirvonen? Ummm I don't reallyh think so. All have a good day and happy futile arguing among yourselves.

AKR?!?!? Knowing you, you've probably read every single post in this thread. As you can tell, the horse has been beaten to death but some how it has felt empty without your Tifosa commentary.