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[The Ram]

Deconstructing Sebastian Vettel
How does Sebastian Vettel fare against Formula 1's greatest stars from the past? It may be too early to know, but Edd Straw explains why the German is the greatest 23-year-old that the sport has ever seen

By Edd Straw
AUTOSPORT F1 editor

Sebastian Vettel's 2011 season has been truly astonishing, with his five wins from seven races adding up to a monstrous 60-point championship lead over Jenson Button. That's a whopping 83 points more than the German had at the same point last year. And had the Chinese and Canadian Grands Prix been respectively four and one lap shorter

Bllah blah blah blah..

Sure, there are still some chinks in the armour and some boxes to tick, but surely he is the greatest 23-year-old that the sport has ever seen? After all, the argument that he has lucked into his success is starting to wear a little thin.

VERDICT:

ADRIAN NEWEY

[Big Azza]

I'm still going to keep harping on about his Toro Rosso days....

[schumifan]

I'm still going to keep harping on about his Toro Rosso days....

Imagine if he had been put into a top 3 car when he first started!!

[Big Azza]

I'm still going to keep harping on about his Toro Rosso days....

Imagine if he had been put into a top 3 car when he first started!!

Perhaps would start off as a crash kid, but would surely have been known to be super quick. I've just been looking through Vettel's performances in a Toro Rosso versus his team mates'. The stats below show qualifying position/race position

2007- Team Mate Vitantonio Liuzzi

Hungary
VL 16th/DNF Mechanical SV 20th/16th

Turkey
VL 15th/15th SV 18th/19th

Italy
VL 19th/17th SV 16th/18th

Belgium
VL 13th/12th SV 16th/DNF Collision

Japan
VL 14th/9th SV 8th/DNF - Collision (This was the foudning of Sebastian. Qualifying 8th in a Toro Rosso on a wet track. Unbelievable, and was almost on for a podium except for that collision with Mark behind the safety car. )

China
VL 11th/6th SV 17th (Pen- 5places)/4th (My favourite Youtube video is Vettel celebrating like a nut case over the radio after this race! )

Brazil
VL 14th/13th SV 13th/DNF Mechanical

2008 - Team Mate Sebastian Bourdais

Australia
SB 17th/DNF - Mechanical, Classified 7th. SV 10th/DNF - Collision Lap 0 (Bourdais was going to finish 4th when he had a hydraulics failure near the end. Seb out on lap 0 - Nakajima's Fault).

Malaysia
SB 18th/DNF - Spun Off Lap 0. SV 15th/DNF - Mechanical

Bahrain
SB 15th/15th SV 19th/DNF - Lap 0 Collision Vettel's Fault. (Vettel blames his set-up for poor qually performance)

Spain
SB 16th/DNF Collision SV 18th/DNF Collision Lap 0. (4 DNFs so far, 3 of them on Lap 0). Vettel has done very few laps all year.

Turkey
SB 18th/DNF Mechanical SV 14th/17th and Last.

Monaco
SB 16th/DNF Collision SV 19th/5th (Vettel starts 2nd last because of Gearbox penalty. He overtook a few, as well as benefiting from a good strategy and high attrition. My first F1 race and a memorable Vettel highlight)

Canada
SB 18th Penalty/13th SV 19th (did not take part)/8th (Vettel overtakes Kovaleinen in a McLaren as well as Barichello Thus debunking the theory that Vettel cannot overtake. )

France
SB 17th/14th SV 12th/12th

Britain
SB 13th/11th SV 8th / DNF Lap 0

Germany
SB 15th/12th SV 9th/8th

Hungary
SB 19th penalty/18th (2 fires) SV 11th/DNF Mechanical

Europe
SB 10th/10th SV 6th/6th (Typical Valencia. )

Belgium
SB 9th/7th SV 10th/5th

Italy
SB 4th/18th (stalled - poor guy) SV 1st/1st ( Historic moment for ex-Minardi team)

Singapore
SB 17th/12th SV 6th/5th (Vettel starts proving he's in a different class )

Japan
SB 10th/10th SV 9th/6th

China
SB 8th/13th SV 6th/9th

Brazil
SB 9th/14th SV 7th/4th (Another highlight in everyone's memory, Sebastian almost ruined Hamilton's title chances. Remember? )

This will hopefully prove to everyone that Vettel has always been an absolutely fantastic driver - and will continue to be, with or without Newey. Because of these statistics, I always believed Vettel could a) Overtake, and b) Was a very fast qualifier on his day - in a not-so-good car c)is a very good racer and deserves just as much as anyone to be where he is. Hence, the reason why I was so blatantly defending him last year when he was crash-prone. Better than that, he actually proved himself in a slow car before stepping up to RBR. Hamilton is one of the best, but I don't think you can give Hamilton the same credit for that.

[texasmr2]

It is nice too see you are not biased .

[Big Azza]

It is nice too see you are not biased .

I tried as best I could, but still couldn't supress my inner fandom....

When I have some time I'm going to re-write the Sebastian Vettel page on Wikipedia!

[FRAFPDD]

I'm still going to keep harping on about his Toro Rosso days....

Imagine if he had been put into a top 3 car when he first started!!

Perhaps would start off as a crash kid, but would surely have been known to be super quick. I've just been looking through Vettel's performances in a Toro Rosso versus his team mates'. The stats below show qualifying position/race position

2007- Team Mate Vitantonio Liuzzi

Hungary
VL 16th/DNF Mechanical SV 20th/16th

Turkey
VL 15th/15th SV 18th/19th

Italy
VL 19th/17th SV 16th/18th

Belgium
VL 13th/12th SV 16th/DNF Collision

Japan
VL 14th/9th SV 8th/DNF - Collision (This was the foudning of Sebastian. Qualifying 8th in a Toro Rosso on a wet track. Unbelievable, and was almost on for a podium except for that collision with Mark behind the safety car. )

China
VL 11th/6th SV 17th (Pen- 5places)/4th (My favourite Youtube video is Vettel celebrating like a nut case over the radio after this race! )

Brazil
VL 14th/13th SV 13th/DNF Mechanical

2008 - Team Mate Sebastian Bourdais

Australia
SB 17th/DNF - Mechanical, Classified 7th. SV 10th/DNF - Collision Lap 0 (Bourdais was going to finish 4th when he had a hydraulics failure near the end. Seb out on lap 0 - Nakajima's Fault).

Malaysia
SB 18th/DNF - Spun Off Lap 0. SV 15th/DNF - Mechanical

Bahrain
SB 15th/15th SV 19th/DNF - Lap 0 Collision Vettel's Fault. (Vettel blames his set-up for poor qually performance)

Spain
SB 16th/DNF Collision SV 18th/DNF Collision Lap 0. (4 DNFs so far, 3 of them on Lap 0). Vettel has done very few laps all year.

Turkey
SB 18th/DNF Mechanical SV 14th/17th and Last.

Monaco
SB 16th/DNF Collision SV 19th/5th (Vettel starts 2nd last because of Gearbox penalty. He overtook a few, as well as benefiting from a good strategy and high attrition. My first F1 race and a memorable Vettel highlight)

Canada
SB 18th Penalty/13th SV 19th (did not take part)/8th (Vettel overtakes Kovaleinen in a McLaren as well as Barichello Thus debunking the theory that Vettel cannot overtake. )

France
SB 17th/14th SV 12th/12th

Britain
SB 13th/11th SV 8th / DNF Lap 0

Germany
SB 15th/12th SV 9th/8th

Hungary
SB 19th penalty/18th (2 fires) SV 11th/DNF Mechanical

Europe
SB 10th/10th SV 6th/6th (Typical Valencia. )

Belgium
SB 9th/7th SV 10th/5th

Italy
SB 4th/18th (stalled - poor guy) SV 1st/1st ( Historic moment for ex-Minardi team)

Singapore
SB 17th/12th SV 6th/5th (Vettel starts proving he's in a different class )

Japan
SB 10th/10th SV 9th/6th

China
SB 8th/13th SV 6th/9th

Brazil
SB 9th/14th SV 7th/4th (Another highlight in everyone's memory, Sebastian almost ruined Hamilton's title chances. Remember? )

This will hopefully prove to everyone that Vettel has always been an absolutely fantastic driver - and will continue to be, with or without Newey. Because of these statistics, I always believed Vettel could a) Overtake, and b) Was a very fast qualifier on his day - in a not-so-good car c)is a very good racer and deserves just as much as anyone to be where he is. Hence, the reason why I was so blatantly defending him last year when he was crash-prone. Better than that, he actually proved himself in a slow car before stepping up to RBR. Hamilton is one of the best, but I don't think you can give Hamilton the same credit for that.

ROFL, Call me a fanboy a hater whatever you damn want, a plethora of stats of which Vettel is judged against a current HRT driver and a driver kicked out for being below standard, as a basis on which to form the opinion that hes: "always been a fantastic driver" is the main reason you might find yourself taking such needless stick from fans on here, if your ever feeling hard done by just read through this post of yours.

And then claiming you cant give Hamilton the same credit Vettel deserves. Asking for it mate to be honest, go beat two time current wdc's in your rookie year......you did? Well im afraid that isnt good enough because Vettel comprehehnsively beat the dropout and the dissapointment.

The moment Vettel moves to Ferrari, presumably against a top driver, in a top car that isnt dominant, you are going to hit the earth with an almighty thud.

[Big Azza]

Fraff, why are you making this personal?

Also, we can add Mark Webber to the mix and I don't underrate Bourdais.

[FRAFPDD]

Fraff, why are you making this personal?

Also, we can add Mark Webber to the mix and I don't underrate Bourdais.

Its not personal chum it never is, never will be, its just a forum to me.

Billindenver implied my family are retards, im more then happy to keep talking to him on this forum, although his opinion is almost always something detrimental about Hamilton.

If you felt that was personal and quite aggersiive, soz, it wasnt.

Bourdais, Webber and Liuzzi are NOT Alonso and Button, three wdc's between them, throw in heikki if you want as a kicker, Hamilton has never been beaten by a team mate, and more then half of them have been world champions. Theres your difference.

Then to say Hamilton isnt as qualified as Vettel is, is just a step i think you took too far. They say Hamiltons had it easy in F1 cause his first year was in the top team, firstly, it was joint top team, secondly he was up against a current and double WC, thirdly, i think id much rather have joined in a toro rosso mid 2007, and by two years have the most dominant car on the grid by far for two and a half years going on three, then have to fight from day 1.

2010 and 2011 are walkover titles. The only reason it looked like a wdc fight was on was the rb7 unreliability, although.........Webber managed to make the same car finish about 3 times as much......

There is no point in judging Vettel with such a car IMO. Im not a closed book and SV is not a closed case. Ill wait till hes moved to MC or Ferrari and then ill see.

[nish2280]

I dont think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability and talent...they do doubt Vettel's though and that is what Big Azza was trying to address i think.

[FRAFPDD]

I dont think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability and talent...they do doubt Vettel's though and that is what Big Azza was trying to address i think.

Agree, but see that the only thing i am trying to adress with my seemingly beratefulness of Vettel and/or his fans. Is that there are reasons Vettels are doubted, Hamiltons proved through total 100 percent CIRCUMSTANCE not skill, although skill/talent/speed are the factors, Hamiltons proved through CIRCUMSTANCE enough to be warranted one of the best, if not the best on the grid. Vettel just has not had the right chance to. Hes never been paired with a teammate to, and his car is certainly far too good to make accurate obseravations of his pole count etc. Whilst all not his fault and hes certainly making the most of it, it doesnt make it any less "contextual" when determining what his talents are in relation to other drivers.

Vettel hasnt had the chance to, and its annoying as f*ck when his fans especially on here just push push push push and push their agenda on everyone and try to force the issue. It doesnt need to be forced. Let his driving do that talking and take the chance to be the first set of fans (unlike senna, hamilton, alonso and so on) that can just sit back and laugh at how well your drivers doing, rather then pick on the ones hes up against (namely Hamilton to be honest), its all very well having a big mouth when your drivers rolling in the big time. But itll hurt like a bitch when he really is fighting for podiums and wins, rather then flying off from pole in a dominant car.


Thats all im saying. Have a bit of dignity and modesty nobody elses fans have actually managed.

[nish2280]

I dont think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability and talent...they do doubt Vettel's though and that is what Big Azza was trying to address i think.

Agree, but see that the only thing i am trying to adress with my seemingly beratefulness of Vettel and/or his fans. Is that there are reasons Vettels are doubted, Hamiltons proved through total 100 percent CIRCUMSTANCE not skill, although skill/talent/speed are the factors, Hamiltons proved through CIRCUMSTANCE enough to be warranted one of the best, if not the best on the grid. Vettel just has not had the right chance to. Hes never been paired with a teammate to, and his car is certainly far too good to make accurate obseravations of his pole count etc. Whilst all not his fault and hes certainly making the most of it, it doesnt make it any less "contextual" when determining what his talents are in relation to other drivers.

Vettel hasnt had the chance to, and its annoying as f*ck when his fans especially on here just push push push push and push their agenda on everyone and try to force the issue. It doesnt need to be forced. Let his driving do that talking and take the chance to be the first set of fans (unlike senna, hamilton, alonso and so on) that can just sit back and laugh at how well your drivers doing, rather then pick on the ones hes up against (namely Hamilton to be honest), its all very well having a big mouth when your drivers rolling in the big time. But itll hurt like a bitch when he really is fighting for podiums and wins, rather then flying off from pole in a dominant car.


Thats all im saying. Have a bit of dignity and modesty nobody elses fans have actually managed.

I think to be honest most Vettel fans have faith that their driver is as good as they believe he is, there is not as much evidence to prove his ability and skill as Lewis and his fans have, that is for certain.

I also sometimes grimace when i see people fanboying all over Vettel because i know that at any moment his career could burst into a shameful flame and make his fans look like idiots. And the more they boost his profile without evidence the harder the fall will be for both him and his fans.

I think Big Azza was trying to show the evidence that makes him believe that Vettel is great, it might not be as convincing as Lewis's but it is evidence nonetheless, and it's purpose is definitely not to put down Hamilton.

[FRAFPDD]

[Big Azza]

I dont think anyone doubts Hamilton's ability and talent...they do doubt Vettel's though and that is what Big Azza was trying to address i think.

Well done - you've tapped in and determined why I'm going on like a lunatic. I wouldn't be so passionately defending Vettel if there weren't so many people doubting him. I have acknowledged that Hamilton is a great driver, and fair enough it was unfair for me compare Hamilton in that way. He hasn't driven a Toro Rosso, so there's no point bringing that up as a comparison point. Just like there is no point comparing Vettel racing against champion team-mates. Both comparison points are N/A. Hence please accept my apologies for alluding to this.

However, it really cheeses me off when Vettel is being doubted because of having Adrian Newey onside. Was Michael Schumacher doubted for having Ross Brawn on side? I don't know, that's before my time. Some people seem to doubt Schumacher's talent despite winning 7 world championships, and 90-odd races. In that regard, Vettel will always be doubted, unless he deliberately moves back to Toro Rosso with Fernando Alonso and then wins a World Championship. The reason why I posted those statistics is because I believe that that is enough evidence to show that Vettel can drive very well, without Newey. Toro Rosso was only a tiny team, what he did for that team would've amazed everyone around him in that team.

Did Toro Rosso actually build a car that was the 4th fastest? That will always be doubted whether it was Vettel or the car. Vettel has won races for two teams and outclassed all team mates he has come up against. Liuzzi was no pay driver. He was a Red Bull backed driver because he obviously had some talent, and was well established at the time that Vettel started racing. What Vettel achieved in his Rookie Year in a Toro Rosso against such a driver, is an amazing display of skill in my opinion.

Bourdais has won many championships outside Formula One, in a variety of formulas, not to mention his strong performances at Le Mans. He was a very good driver. What have the existing Toro Rosso drivers done to prove that they were better than Bourdais would've been?

Regarding Webber, I realise I was ludicrous in early suggesting that Webber is too slow. His form cannot change that drastically over the off-season. The fact that he still got a pole position in Catalunya still proves to me that he's still got it. However my calls for him to move on are based on the fact that the next Red Bull Prodigy is there in Jean-Eric Vergne. That young man in their junior ranks actually has the potential to be greater than both Vettel and Ricciardo. But he really has to get a seat soon, and so does Ricciardo. I want to see both of them in a Toro Rosso next year, so Webber has to move on, Buemi get's promoted and Algy go elsewhere.

There shouldn't be any doubt in Vettel's talent in 2008, particularly his fight with Hamilton in Brazil that year, and his historic win in Monza.

Eventually the ultimate Red Bull team of the future should be Vergne and Vettel. (The two Vs - they should be sponsored by V - not Red Bull )

I believe I have picked the perfect thread to wear my heart on my sleeve when it comes to supporting Vettel - as long as I'm not offending anyone and I'm stating these as my opinion I should be fine.

But once again I'll say - I'm also, perhaps more excited about Red Bull's future in Vergne, and I'm dying to see him end up in a race seat next year....

[vlad]

Just watched F1 classics on BBC! Hahaha, what a move by Vettel on Hamilton in the last race of 2008 season.