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[Jabberwocky]

and in 50 years time who is gonna remember? the history books will just say Vettel 4 years on the bounce.

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe in 50 years, but right now everyone believes Alonso

[Jabberwocky]

So are you saying if you where in Seb ' s shoes you would just roll over and "Alonso is right I am crap"?

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[CookinFlat6]

I wouldn't say 'he knows nothing because I have more WDCs'

[Roth]

This has always been Alonso's line on Vettel. And Hamilton for that matter. Why do people keep asking him other than to get some good copy? It gets handed around so all Vettel's detractors can smile and laugh.

I don't see the point. There's bringing him down a peg or two when his success is dubious, and then there's sticking the boot in when he's struggling. Two completely different things. One can be done with integrity, the other makes you look like an idiot.

[racechick]

I think Alonso is spot on with this. Everyone can now see what Alonso and Hamilton ( and people on here ) have been saying all along, even at the height of Vettel's 'legendness' . He was never on a par with Hamilton and Alonso, and they knew it.

[What's Burning?]

This has always been Alonso's line on Vettel. And Hamilton for that matter. Why do people keep asking him other than to get some good copy? It gets handed around so all Vettel's detractors can smile and laugh.

I don't see the point. There's bringing him down a peg or two when his success is dubious, and then there's sticking the boot in when he's struggling. Two completely different things. One can be done with integrity, the other makes you look like an idiot.

This applies to everyone, not just Vettel right? The magnifying effect here is that, this isn't just some guy having a Brawn 2009 season. We heard for a long, long time from fans and pundits alike how he was the greatest the sport has ever seen.

[Roth]

It's the taking pleasure in his struggle i don't like. He's not exempt from criticism, but if he's been having the same struggle all season, and nothing's really changed, the only reason to keep asking Alonso the same question is to get good copy, and rile a few people up. Alonso was saying it last year too, so some people have the ability to separate the car and driver and some people don't. For anyone who thought he was a GOAT then this season is a rude awakening - but it should be their problem to come to terms with that, not an opportunity to rub the guy's nose in it.

He's not being a d!ck about the situaution, he's struggling with the new regs and DR is loving them, which doesn't help. There's far too many variables to turn around and say, see i told you he was rubbish.

[What's Burning?]

Meh... this is the guy that said that the reason Red Bull and he were so dominant is because they just work harder. I could care less about a driver's feelings etc. It's a hell of a lot simpler to judge them on what they do or don't do on the track.

[Roth]

I never said any different, keep the judgement of any driver on the track, or within f1's confines, I agree. But if you're going to do that you have to look at it properly, not use the same tactics people used to build him up. This season is no more a marker of how poor he is, as the last few seasons were a barometer of how good he is. All Alonso is saying he's not the best, but he got the best from what he was given, fair play to him; it's just Hamilton's better. But it gives ammo to those who take glee in his struggles.

[What's Burning?]

I'd be willing to accept that a hell of a lot more if Ricciardo wasn't making him look foolish, race day after race day. Live by the sword, die by the sword tends to be the case. At least he's got four world championships. After we're all dead they'll look good in the record books.

[Roth]

Yeah he has a lovely cushion beneath him to fall on, but I don't think it's as simple as he's getting his backside handed to him on a plate. For now he falls between not a GOAT and good, with various asterisk and whatnot added on.

[What's Burning?]

Yeah he has a lovely cushion beneath him to fall on, but I don't think it's as simple as he's getting his backside handed to him on a plate. For now he falls between not a GOAT and good, with various asterisk and whatnot added on.

Well for now he falls on the I can't win a race in a car that's clearly capable of winning in certain scenarios. The RB10 looked cursed from the start with a name like that, but Ricciardo has saved it. I've seen Lewis win in cars that were this year's RB10 equivalent and I've seen Alonso do the same.

Vettel will have a surplus of asterisks in that category.

[CookinFlat6]

Yup, we have all seen good drivers earn a seat in a good team and then waste the field in a 2 sec car, we have all seen average drivers suddenly have a tide of fortune and end up in a 2 sec car against the natural order of 'best drivers end up in best seats'

What we didnt see from Damon Hill was more than a year winning the WDC because Frank knows its about the 2 sec car, what we didnt see from Nich Heidfeld was any WDC as he was not lucky.

When we then see Seb matched by an ageing Webber apart from the times the car was built around him and Neweys trick diffuser, when we see him fumble his way through the field and when we see him in a 2 sec car for years, its ok - he got lucky he wasnt at Williams or he would have only one WDC.

But when we are then forced to accept him as the best since Fangio, and a driver that actually goes even quicker because he is academic smart, a driver that visits the tyre factory, a driver that helps the team take out the garbage, a guy that was so clever he once drove off the racing line through puddles to cool his tyres, thats when the boys from the men get sorted out

Those that can see for themselves and trust their own perceptions vs those who are easily swayed by others who appear to "know more" And the funny thing was most of his fans were just happy that Lewis was no longer anything special, and so they got carried away with the deification - remember the pundits, ex drivers, certain Scottish ex driver all getting carried away

Its not so much Seb people are laughing at - its more his missing flock, amongst pundits and fans

And some thought mnm was given a hard time for his rage that people dared to say Seb wasnt the best ever in light of the stats, they have ALL vanished yet you can sense they are just praying and waiting for some messiah like emergence of Seb (from behind his teamate) Ricc is much better in the race than he is at quali

[sagi58]

It's the taking pleasure in his struggle i don't like...

I see what you mean!