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[stonemonkey]

It still takes talent to drive a fast car fast and while I don't deny he's been under pressure during his winning seasons, in my opinion he hadn't or rarely had been under the same pressures that Hamilton and Rosberg are under this season or other drivers have been in the past so I'm not really going with Horner's comments on that.

[What's Burning?]

And, that's the crux of the issue, if I'm allowed to say so.
Comments are taken out of context, so that the intent is lost.

It appears to me a lot of your commentary is very much in context and it's you that changes that context when your own words are used against you.

[CookinFlat6]

So Alonso's prophecy about how Vettel performs when he hasn't a top car suddenly doesn't look like sour grapes now does it? Lewis and him have shown their quality in much more dodgier cars over the years and I'm not even a big fan of Alonso.

Many of us said exactly the same thing on this thread way before Alonso. If you go back there are some very interesting 'debates' on the 'one trick pony' vs 'genius adapter'

Yet all of a sudden we have been informed that its only when he is doing badly that we are 'kicking him when his down' because he is not our favourite driver

[CookinFlat6]

Murray in his old age is as generous and nice as ever.

Thing about Senna and Clark and the true greats is that they demonstrated their talent all the time. Senna outdrove the field in a Toleman in Monaco. In the best car he out drove the field but also outdrove Prost who was the most ruthlessly efficient WDC of the era. Lewis and Alonso in the same car tested each other.

However until Seb beats the best drivers of this era in the same car, he will be a great in waiting. He got shown up in the lesser series( Paul di Resta ), Webber matched him in 2010 when he had the same car and Webber aint a great. And it wasnt as if Seb had an off year in 2010. The 2 were pretty equal.

And then we saw what happened in the few races when the Red Bull did not have a massive advantage over the other cars, Seb had problems making Q3, when the Red Bull lost its aero advantage and was not faster than the others he grabbed the title crashkid.

In other words, although massively talented without doubt and IMo the second fastest guy on the grid, when one has a car with a 2 sec advantage its much easier to make no mistakes or overtake or carve through the field. Unless he soundly beats a top ranked driver in the same car, or wins with a car thats equal to the others (in normal conditions), without getting flustered and crashing into people I just cannot see how his talent compares to era greats like Senna or Lewis or Alonso.

I think next year with the new regulations should see things mixed up a bit, lets see if he can still win each race if the car doesnt have a 2 sec advantage for at least part of the year.

The Redbull has been the quickest car but the only time it mimicked the Brawn was in the past 3-4 races after the summer break. I'd say Vettel has had some pressure to contend with in the previous year from Alonso and his drive on the way to his first WDC in 2010 was what impressed me most, balls out racing from 3rd in the WDC to grab it in the last race, team on his side or not, beating Alonso and Ferrari was never going to be easy and they did it.

Fair enough opinion. I used to think similarly of Seb

However it is now my firm opinion that Red Bull have been sandbagging like crazy over the last 3 years, except on the occasions when the change in regulations about engine maps and exhaust blowing removed their advantage temporarily.

If that is the case, (and I hope somehow Seb shows a similar level of competence and speed next year if and when the car is clearly not way better than others) If that is the case, that his effortless ability to pull a gap at the start of most races and in q3 is down to an advantage that is used sparingly, well then all his achievements have to be reappraised

We have judged him on his ability from the front mainly and from his apparent superiority over Webber. If his car is found later to have had a '2 sec nitro boost button' then it would tie up with how he has managed to look good even when in the pack and sometimes winning, sometimes crashing and showing poor racecraft

It is a reasonable opinion to hold off elevating him to say Alonso status if Alonso almost beat him twice in an inferior car and despite a 2 sec sandbag advantage

Looking at the claim that Seb is a great. This is based on a number of WDCs and wins. Yes a dominant car has allowed drivers to win in the past. heres the kicker

Every single driver who has won one WDC in a dominant car such as Button, J Villeneuve, D Hill and many others were just as great as Seb for 1 year. If they had continued to have the same dominant car for 4 years then by simple extrapolation they would be just as great as Seb is today

Therefore every driver who has won in a massively dominant car ( and we can say, a car that has shown a 2 sec advantage over others) would be as great as Seb had they been handed certain circumstances, such as a handicapped teammate (we know Webber matches Seb without handicaps)

Now the truly great drivers are not great because of such circumstances but because of driving ability, best demonstrated by their performance against the eras best drivers in the same car (thereby removing the circumstance of having a dominant car) not by having a dominant car for 1,2,3 or 7 years.

Seb is a great under certain circumstances, but has been shown to be average under the metric true greatness is measured by - an ability to beat top quality teammates fairly.

Seb needs Webber to be handicapped to beat him (as we saw in 2010) and Webber is not the top driver of the era. Seb is as great as Button except he has the 2 second car for longer

not comparable to Lewis who won in the second best car or to Alonso, both of whom have been tested against the best a la Senna/Prost

[LH44]

Some just didn't want to believe that the car was a major contributory factor.

[What's Burning?]

Some just didn't want to believe that the car was a major contributory factor.

And that's why today some of those "some" are exalting the virtues of Vettel's helmet designs.

[sagi58]

And, that's the crux of the issue, if I'm allowed to say so.
Comments are taken out of context, so that the intent is lost.

Or maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself? After all, it's not just 1 person in this forum who has a hard time understanding you.

Or maybe it's because as a Ferrari fan, no matter what I say, it will be misinterpreted because of it?

[racechick]

And, that's the crux of the issue, if I'm allowed to say so.
Comments are taken out of context, so that the intent is lost.

Or maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself? After all, it's not just 1 person in this forum who has a hard time understanding you.

Or maybe it's because as a Ferrari fan, no matter what I say, it will be misinterpreted because of it?

I don't believe that's true Sagi. There will always be a very small percentage of fringe elements( on both sides of an argument) who cannot accept facts. But I find the majority of people on this forum will respect an opposing view if it is well presented, even whilst not agreeing with it. And that includes Ferrari fans.

[CookinFlat6]

ferrariman is a tifosi, and I have seen him on several occasions applauded by different members for his F1 knowledge and objectivity.

thing is when supporting Justin beiber or other pop stars its acceptable for teenage fan girls and boys to forget objectiveness or logic and to relly entirely upon passion andblind worship

With F1, its harder to be this way because the technical detail and competition and the huge amount of stats generated each race means that blind passion without any factual underpinning wears thin very quickly when it comes to discussion

Anyone can say 'button is the best, i am loyal to him, i will always argue he is the best no matter what, i have passion, etc etc' however after a few conversations after races where he has been spanked by his rookie teammate who is paid 1/30th as much it becomes really tedious to keep been polite and humouring someone.
And when technical topics are argued without facts or logic, or sweeping statements made but not corroborated, well its almost enough to drive a chap to buy a singlet and to start watching Nascar

[LRW]

And, that's the crux of the issue, if I'm allowed to say so.
Comments are taken out of context, so that the intent is lost.

Or maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself? After all, it's not just 1 person in this forum who has a hard time understanding you.

Or maybe it's because as a Ferrari fan, no matter what I say, it will be misinterpreted because of it?

Or it could be because some people might find your personality not to their liking, and very little to do with the team you support.

[CookinFlat6]

LRW, are you saying its not attractive when someone sets out to ""dig"" at others whilst using an insultingly obvious cloak of ignorance or curiosity

hmmn I see your point, maybe the honest approach of saying 'i just dont like this (team/driver) and I have at least made an effort to present a case' is better than the

'I dont want to put down (team/driver) and I am not stirring but I am curious to know how anyone can blindly support and defend (driver/team) or show bias when I do it ALL the time but I am oh so subtle and clever about it no one notices, and even if they do I will change the subject or claim ignorance in F1 matters or claim a ""mea culpa"" or throw in a random smiley. If all else fails I will press the report button and batter my eyelids to stop the tears at how unfair EVERYONE is being to me. On all the websites I am nice enough to throw opposing but unfounded counter arguments against ABSOLUTELY everything that is not blind Ferrari worship. And I always seem to find a mod with even less knowledge than I have to help out'

[LRW]

Lol. Yes.

[What's Burning?]

I dreamt that Sagi and Andrew got into an argument on this very forum and it caused a rift in the space time continuum.

[sagi58]

So, you all have me figured out, eh?
Nice!

[Hammer278]

And, that's the crux of the issue, if I'm allowed to say so.
Comments are taken out of context, so that the intent is lost.

Or maybe you're just bad at expressing yourself? After all, it's not just 1 person in this forum who has a hard time understanding you.

Or maybe it's because as a Ferrari fan, no matter what I say, it will be misinterpreted because of it?

I can easily think of two guys in red here, LiamCatterson and Ferrariman who speak complete sense and I really have no issues understanding them. So your claim is just another stupid statement with no basis whatsoever. Sorry to be blunt, but I find patience is no longer the answer when dealing with you.