FORUMula1.com

[vaptin]

I demand it be kept on record that I've resisted the urge to edit my post.

Ah, but you can't edit the quotes... and only a moderator/admin can edit without leaving a "last edited by" at the bottom of the post

Yeah, but I can edit posts and insist dd and you have been lying.

Suppose the next option is to flame this thread so it gets completely removed.

Mclaren have always favoured Lewis, against Alonso, against Hekki and against Jenson.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

In the 1950s, it was common for a slower driver to surrender his car to a faster teammate who's car was on the mend. Team orders are part of F1's birthright. They will never -- can never -- truly be abolished.

Yes it can; it is enforceable; but the governing body isn't willing to regulate the sport fully;...

Rubbish. How do you propose they do that, hire a clairvoyant? EKG scans of the drivers and their race engineers?

There can't NOT be team orders so long as teams have just one pit box.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...but the governing body isn't willing to regulate the sport fully;...

That's the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy in a different kilt. You argue completely speculatively that the continued use of team orders succeeds only because the FIA fails to make a full faith effort to end their use. Conveniently, under best of circumstances, this can neither be proved nor disproved.

Especially now that all team radio broadcasts are made public knowledge, it has become all the more important that the race engineer be able to pass information to the driver in a cryptic fashion. There areandwill continue to be secret messages passed to the driver. For any team that so chooses, this will serve to make the practise of team orders while in plain view all the easier.

Always have been. Always will be. Can't be prevented.

[myownalias]

There can't NOT be team orders so long as teams have just one pit box.

Deciding who should pit first is NOT the same as letting your team mate pass on track... that's a weak argument!!!

...only because the FIA fails to make a full faith effort to end their use.

The FIA acknowledged that McLaren used team orders in Turkey after Ferrari used it as a defence for their actions in Germany, so therefore by default the FIA have been "turning a blind eye"; doesn't that indicate that the FIA are not using all the means at their disposal to enforce the no team order rule? If the rule didn't exist, none of this would even be discussed; it's the fact that a rule was created to appease fans and the FIA have done nothing to enforce it!!! For me it shows that the big teams have very little respect for the rules or alternatively; the FIA have agreed with teams not to punish them for using team orders as long as it's kept covert and out of the public eye!

I'm not suggesting that team orders could be completely stamped out but much more could be done which would deter teams using team orders.

I demand it be kept on record that I've resisted the urge to edit my post.

Ah, but you can't edit the quotes... and only a moderator/admin can edit without leaving a "last edited by" at the bottom of the post

Yeah, but I can edit posts and insist dd and you have been lying.

Suppose the next option is to flame this thread so it gets completely removed.

It's won't happen; DD and I are pillars of the community & we never delete whole threads unless it's spam, it'll be placed under lock and key!

[billindenver]

For me it is a far bigger attempt to insult everyone's intelligence if they do it covertly. But then they have to do it to successfully use that 'loophole' in the rules. Regarding throttle lifting and stuff, if they started checking the telemetery there'd merely be a lot more 'accidental' pushing of speed limiter buttons... and to be blunt, i honestly couldn't give a damn about part time fans and their opinions, as they really have nothing to do with me.

Everyone feels cheated by team orders when they are blatant but apparently there is some allowance when it is subtle. I really cannot understand that. Regardless, i truly hate team orders but at the same time accept that they happen, because really we have no choice and there is no reasonable way of stopping them. Fred_C_Dobbs made the point of team orders being intrinsically involved in F1 and that is entirely true.

Agreed.

Those who think you can just check telemetry to see if a driver gave way are clearly not thinking about how a race car is driven. You take your foot off the throttle to turn, put it back on when you are done turning...what if you just hold off a bit before applying that throttle? What if you intentionally square off the corner? Miss your braking marker? Go wide? Change fuel maps. etc. The fact of the matter is there are so many ways to slow a car down without it being provable that its ridiculous to attempt it. Should it be a steward judgment call then? How would the McLaren fans feel if their drivers were disqualified in Italy next year because some Italian steward believed the telemetry showed that Jenson wasn't trying hard enough? With our current group of inept stewards etc....do you really want races decided after they have ended by Stewards staring at telemetry? Please...that's the silliest argument I've seen in the Team Orders debate...and that's saying something.

[texasmr2]

I demand it be kept on record that I've resisted the urge to edit my post.

Ah, but you can't edit the quotes... and only a moderator/admin can edit without leaving a "last edited by" at the bottom of the post

Yeah, but I can edit posts and insist dd and you have been lying.

Suppose the next option is to flame this thread so it gets completely removed.

Mclaren have always favoured Lewis, against Alonso, against Hekki and against Jenson.

I may be returning as a mod and I'll ban them both for having an opinion that curdles ones milk !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHimj-crMrA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[racechick]

So once again Masa gives Alonsoa win. Way to go boys!!
(I realise im a little late with this observation, bin on my hols )

[spankyham]

So once again Masa gives Alonsoa win. Way to go boys!!
(I realise im a little late with this observation, bin on my hols )

Yes, handed it to him, but you missed the bit that it was as "team order".

I don't know what gives me more pleasure:-
Alonso winning
OR
the torture it puts the Anti-Ferrarista through
OR
the explanations people come up with the try and take discredit

It will just be sooooooo sweet if Ferrari can win the WDC - gotta be by less than 7 ... please oh please
Another championship for Ferrari, Alonso being a 3rd time and youngest ever WDC

[bud]

Talking like its already won...

Just on winning by less than 7...

Former F1 president Max Mosley has said that if Fernando Alonso should win the 2010 title by seven points or less it could devalue the Formula One World Championship.

The Englishman is referring to the seven points the Spaniard gained as a result of the team orders incident at the German Grand Prix. Although hit with a £100,000 fine both Ferrari and its drivers escaped further punishment when they subsequently went before the FIA, a decision that has pretty much polarised opinion in terms of fans, the media and the F1 paddock.

Speaking before Ferrari's appearance before the World Motor sport council last month, Mosley said that in his opinion both the team and its drivers should forfeit their points.

"On the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine," he told Welt am Sonntag, "both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved. If a team introduces team-orders into a race, heavy penalties should be issued."

Speaking today, Mosley told BBC's 5 live: "I did feel at the very least that the extra points that Alonso got by overtaking Massa under team orders should have been taken away.

"That's the absolute minimum," he added, "because if by any chance Alonso were to win the championship with a margin less than the seven points that he picked up, I would say illegitimately in Hockenheim, it would devalue the championship. But that's just a personal view."

[racechick]

So once again Masa gives Alonsoa win. Way to go boys!!
(I realise im a little late with this observation, bin on my hols )

Yes, handed it to him, but you missed the bit that it was as "team order".

I don't know what gives me more pleasure:-
Alonso winning
OR
the torture it puts the Anti-Ferrarista through
OR
the explanations people come up with the try and take discredit

It will just be sooooooo sweet if Ferrari can win the WDC - gotta be by less than 7 ... please oh please
Another championship for Ferrari, Alonso being a 3rd time and youngest ever WDC

I didnt miss the "team orders" bit. I assumed you'd take that as read since its the title of the thread.

No torture if he wins. I'll just disregard him and the 2nd place driver will be champion in my eyes.

Alonso isnt the youngest ever WDC, Lewis is.

[FRAFPDD]

So once again Masa gives Alonsoa win. Way to go boys!!
(I realise im a little late with this observation, bin on my hols )

Yes, handed it to him, but you missed the bit that it was as "team order".

I don't know what gives me more pleasure:-
Alonso winning
OR
the torture it puts the Anti-Ferrarista through
OR
the explanations people come up with the try and take discredit

It will just be sooooooo sweet if Ferrari can win the WDC - gotta be by less than 7 ... please oh please
Another championship for Ferrari, Alonso being a 3rd time and youngest ever WDC

I didnt miss the "team orders" bit. I assumed you'd take that as read since its the title of the thread.

No torture if he wins. I'll just disregard him and the 2nd place driver will be champion in my eyes.

Alonso isnt the youngest ever WDC, Lewis is.

ill accept alonso as a true champion spanky, ESPECIALLY knowing how much sheer agony your going to have to go tgrough when hamilton wins his next WDC's hahaha, oh dear, your in for a rough ride mate. alonso can bloody have this years.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...I'm not suggesting that team orders could be completely stamped out....

That is precisely what you wrote.

[What's Burning?]

One driver, one team, no team orders.

[darwin dali]

So once again Masa gives Alonsoa win. Way to go boys!!
(I realise im a little late with this observation, bin on my hols )

Yes, handed it to him, but you missed the bit that it was as "team order".

I don't know what gives me more pleasure:-
Alonso winning
OR
the torture it puts the Anti-Ferrarista through
OR
the explanations people come up with the try and take discredit

It will just be sooooooo sweet if Ferrari can win the WDC - gotta be by less than 7 ... please oh please
Another championship for Ferrari, Alonso being a 3rd time and youngest ever WDC

I didnt miss the "team orders" bit. I assumed you'd take that as read since its the title of the thread.

No torture if he wins. I'll just disregard him and the 2nd place driver will be champion in my eyes.

Alonso isnt the youngest ever WDC, Lewis is.

Spanky meant the youngest triple WDC, which FA would be if he wins this year.

[darwin dali]

Talking like its already won...

Just on winning by less than 7...

Former F1 president Max Mosley has said that if Fernando Alonso should win the 2010 title by seven points or less it could devalue the Formula One World Championship.

The Englishman is referring to the seven points the Spaniard gained as a result of the team orders incident at the German Grand Prix. Although hit with a £100,000 fine both Ferrari and its drivers escaped further punishment when they subsequently went before the FIA, a decision that has pretty much polarised opinion in terms of fans, the media and the F1 paddock.

Speaking before Ferrari's appearance before the World Motor sport council last month, Mosley said that in his opinion both the team and its drivers should forfeit their points.

"On the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine," he told Welt am Sonntag, "both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved. If a team introduces team-orders into a race, heavy penalties should be issued."

Speaking today, Mosley told BBC's 5 live: "I did feel at the very least that the extra points that Alonso got by overtaking Massa under team orders should have been taken away.

"That's the absolute minimum," he added, "because if by any chance Alonso were to win the championship with a margin less than the seven points that he picked up, I would say illegitimately in Hockenheim, it would devalue the championship. But that's just a personal view."

To bring MM into the discussion here is a bit rich - leave this out of it!