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[sagi58]

...I'm a teacher, I see a lot of kids and parents, I can't see the relevance of your comment. This is about how you support your favourite driver not bring up your kids...

... My wife's a teacher also, and she's forever complaining about parents who think their kid's a perfect genius, telling her how to do her job, when apparently they're slightly above average intelligence with an attitude problem. Maybe you're just lucky, I don't know.

RC, I understand how important it is to stay positive about your favourite team/driver!
More importantly how hard it is to stay calm when it would seem that this is "the" year,
yet circumstances seem to be working against your favourite. It's very similar to being
a parent, because it's difficult to separate the emotion from the logic. It's not easy to
compartmentalize the two, as there always seems to be spillage from one to the other.

I also understand what Roth is saying about parents and I believe it's a good analogy.
As teachers, I'm sure we've both come into contact with that "exact" parent that Roth's
wife described to him. In fact, anyone that has ever been involved with their children
in amateur sports will recognize the cross between fan/parent and just how hard it is
for them to be subjective when it comes to their child. That's because emotions are
involved, that's because parents have a vested interest in their child and that's because
they aren't able to separate the two, which is why a teacher there are difficulties when
teachers have their children attend the school they teach in. Worse, if the child is in the
same grade the parent teaches. Again, because it's difficult to compartmentalize the
emotions and the logic, thus subjectivity suffers.

WB, I realize you were mocking the Tifosi in saying you have more logic; but, in the end,
it's the passion you ridicule in one set of fans that you believe sets Hamilton fans apart
from his "supporters". Not really sure how think you can quantify just how much passion
is too much passion; but, if you think you can, all the more power to you!

[sagi58]

Curios do you find your kids being criticized for everything they do or say and called weak minded often? Or do you give your young kids the same type of criticism you provide here about Hamilton? Not sure where the analogy is relevant.

Stupid comment number 2. Don't be flippant about my kids. I was trying to explain myself in a nice way. This is petty.

The analogy is relevant. I'm saying people can get too emotionally invested in something which blinds them to faults. It's possible to both like something and be aware of faults and silly behaviour.

That's a no, no. If you're going to call me stupid at least bother to answer the question honestly, but perhaps you're afraid to look in the mirror.

Uhmmm... WB? Roth didn't call you stupid, he said the comment was stupid.
That's NOT the same thing!!

Play nice, guys!!

[CookinFlat6]

I have two young kids so obviously I interact with a lot of other kids and their parents. i see a lot of parents act like people here with Hamilton thinking the sun shines out of their child's backside - it's ridiculous and unhealthy. I don't treat my kids like that so I certainly won't treat a stranger I see every couple of weeks on TV like that.

Mate, you need to get yourself a dog or cat and lavish some attention on them. Maybe even spoil them a little. The thing is you refuse to focus on the topic of debate and instead keep widening the focus round other things. 'Oh how shocking! some sports fan(atics) suspend a belief in gravity to think their favorite player flys above the hoop'
RIDICULOUS AND UNHEALTHY!!! - its like going into a public toilet and screaming 'this places smells of sh!t'

You appear to have a lot to add to a debate but a lot seems to miss the point by a mile increasingly
You cant point to a fan that has said Lewis is perfect, so its ""all his fans" , you found one that laid into him briefly on the back of specific facts, yet you then claim there is some fan club who dont allow newcomers to criticise without a single fact? you seem to turn up when he is down to attack him, and when he does well you feel the need to remind us of how much bettre he should be doing. Then you turn around and tell us its because you think highly of him and that he should be perfect. Then you turn around and confirm that he is just another driver who is not special in the context of 20 years.
Then you bring your kids into the conversation and then get upset when someone refers back to them while responding to the point you used them to get across
You say things like 'Lewis' was sloppy or 'has a mental weakness' but when pressed for anything outside the standard naysayer line you then again widen your attack to ALL his fans etc

I think all WB was saying, which I agree with, is that this is all so familiar. You are not the first person to come along with exactly the same views and the same assumption that they are clever at disguise and clever enough to lay down some unfounded stuff without anyone noticing that its just the usual irrational invective, and usually when someone has an opinion about someone that is ingrained and consistent and does not need any facts or further input - it is normally only about one thing.

You refuse to acknowledge Buttons retractment but are willing to turn around and call a bunch of people deluded for thinking Lewis makes no mistakes? So when he makes no mistake and you get corrected, you turn around and claim its a whole gang who cant accept Lewis could make a mistake

Finally, if Perez had made a move on Hamilton, like Hamilton did on Button, with the same result, we know what you'd all be saying.

ermm, would this be after Perez made 17 overtakes?[/quote]

I'm saying people can get too emotionally invested in something which blinds them to faults. It's possible to both like something and be aware of faults and silly behaviour.

Well said, however the focus here is on you claiming he was at fault when he wasnt, lets not forget that and lets not refocus on people who cant see faults - just sounds like the old flanking manoeuvre that was last a surprise when Chaka Zulu was around

I think the rest of the season is gonna be painful for those who packed the vaseline away recently and came out from under the cover

[Roth]

You make a lot of assumptions about me, you call me stupid and arrogant and I'm supposed to take you seriously? I spoke for myself and speak for myself, and have remained respectful of the dialogue. You can spend all the time you want micro-criticizing the guy for making a sloppy overtakes but your veneer is wearing thin. The type of bizarre generalization about Lewis fans being like parents of spoiled kids is irrelevant and just like the criticism you so readily dish out about no one else on the grid is laughable.

The next time you personally attack anyone else here won't be as pleasant. Enjoy the rest of the season, fan of the sport... right.

I'm not assuming you're arrogant. Just the stance on there's a point somebody stops being a fan. It's basically saying 'I make the rules'. Which is arrogant. That part I called stupid was like the rousing dialogue from a cheap movie. It had nothing to do with me, just the haters, which I've gone at some lengths to explain i'm not, and that if you weren't so selective about absorbing what i write you wouldn't have written that little bit of melodrama. So yeah, it was stupid. In the same way i say Hamilton was a bit ragged. So I'm not saying you're stupid as a person just in that instance. Hamilton's not usually ragged, just a bit in the last race. And even if you don't agree with my assessment of his race, it doesn't change that i wasn't making a blanket statement about every single overtake he's ever done or did in that race. So let's not take it that way when you get all steamed up and direct your anti anti-Hamilton vitriol at me.

I don't micro-criticise the guy. I've gone over that. Micro criticising would be having a go at every chance about everything he does, and that would make me a pointless hater with an agenda. I try to put my points in a context, I try to reply to points people make. They're quite long so i'm pretty sure it's not just me mindlessly bashing. Then you give me a short reply ignoring bits I make a case and falling back onto some reductive characterisation.

And really, you want me to go into my parenting techniques in detail and what my kids are like? I'm asking again, because it seems very obvious to me why i would not go into this. It should be obvious to any normal adult. Don't labour this point. It's not open for discussion.

So, and read it slowly, it's obvious my point was I'm not like this with things i love so i refuse to be like this with a relative stranger.

And your last line was a veiled threat. It wasn't even that veiled. Don't get on the moral highhorse then fall off. It's not a good look.

[CookinFlat6]

Uhmmm... WB? Roth didn't call you stupid, he said the comment was stupid.
That's NOT the same thing!!

Thanks for applying your experience in these matters to help clarify that

[What's Burning?]

such verbal somersaulting and all to avoid saying what you really feel lest you be found out... life at home must be really tough for some kids.

[youtube]V9AbeALNVkk[/youtube]

[Roth]

I have two young kids so obviously I interact with a lot of other kids and their parents. i see a lot of parents act like people here with Hamilton thinking the sun shines out of their child's backside - it's ridiculous and unhealthy. I don't treat my kids like that so I certainly won't treat a stranger I see every couple of weeks on TV like that.

Mate, you need to get yourself a dog or cat and lavish some attention on them. Maybe even spoil them a little. The thing is you refuse to focus on the topic of debate and instead keep widening the focus round other things. 'Oh how shocking! some sports fan(atics) suspend a belief in gravity to think their favorite player flys above the hoop'
RIDICULOUS AND UNHEALTHY!!! - its like going into a public toilet and screaming 'this places smells of sh!t'

You appear to have a lot to add to a debate but a lot seems to miss the point by a mile increasingly
You cant point to a fan that has said Lewis is perfect, so its ""all his fans" , you found one that laid into him briefly on the back of specific facts, yet you then claim there is some fan club who dont allow newcomers to criticise without a single fact? you seem to turn up when he is down to attack him, and when he does well you feel the need to remind us of how much bettre he should be doing. Then you turn around and tell us its because you think highly of him and that he should be perfect. Then you turn around and confirm that he is just another driver who is not special in the context of 20 years.
Then you bring your kids into the conversation and then get upset when someone refers back to them while responding to the point you used them to get across
You say things like 'Lewis' was sloppy or 'has a mental weakness' but when pressed for anything outside the standard naysayer line you then again widen your attack to ALL his fans etc

I think all WB was saying, which I agree with, is that this is all so familiar. You are not the first person to come along with exactly the same views and the same assumption that they are clever at disguise and clever enough to lay down some unfounded stuff without anyone noticing that its just the usual irrational invective, and usually when someone has an opinion about someone that is ingrained and consistent and does not need any facts or further input - it is normally only about one thing.

You refuse to acknowledge Buttons retractment but are willing to turn around and call a bunch of people deluded for thinking Lewis makes no mistakes? So when he makes no mistake and you get corrected, you turn around and claim its a whole gang who cant accept Lewis could make a mistake

Finally, if Perez had made a move on Hamilton, like Hamilton did on Button, with the same result, we know what you'd all be saying.

ermm, would this be after Perez made 17 overtakes?

I'm saying people can get too emotionally invested in something which blinds them to faults. It's possible to both like something and be aware of faults and silly behaviour.

Well said, however the focus here is on you claiming he was at fault when he wasnt, lets not forget that and lets not refocus on people who cant see faults - just sounds like the old flanking manoeuvre that was last a surprise when Chaka Zulu was around

I think the rest of the season is gonna be painful for those who packed the vaseline away recently and came out from under the cover

I wasn't widening the debate i was putting it into a different context that I thought my shed some light onto the matter. You can come out with your analogies but I can't.

(and yeah cookie, as i said it to WB, you don't make assumptions about me and my family, from me saying i don't indulge every mistake my kids make. They're not free reign because i mention them once as part of a point. I don't care if you were joking. It's not a subject open to discussion. I thought adults would realise it's a sausage thing to do. I made a mistake even mentioning them. I've learned from that).

I didn't say he wasn't different to any other in the context of 20 yrs. Again, i never said that. Stop doing it all the frickin' time, taking things i say a step too far in intent. It's clear he's the driver of a generation. I'm saying that doesn't exclude him from general observations of being less than stellar. And I'm getting it in the neck from half a dozen people who are all just attacking me, so I apologise if i tend to lump you in all the same now and again. I don't have the time for individual character assessments. But when you're all attacking me for basically the same thing it's not so odd i should lump you in together on a particular grievance to save myself a few hours.

I don't come to remind you he should be doing better as a point of contention. I say he's faster than his teammate in the fastest car but he's trailing in the championship and even if you consider DNFs his mistakes have still contributed to it. Otherwise you're saying he's perfect and other things are stopping him. I've said it before it's a victim mentality. You can't clump everything i say together like that either, as a case against me. You're taking everything out of context and putting it into a single pointed arguement. It's like a highight reel of points i've made is the evidence to condemn me. And it's not even accurate quotes but ones that've been through the cookie rhetoric filter.

And I don't think I'm clever. I'm not treating it as a game to wind you up. I just happen to have a not-so-outlandish point I believe in. Don't make me out to be a villain.

And you're excusing Hamilton for hitting Button because he'd made lots of overtakes previously? Before you said Button hit Hamilton, no doubt, if we're swapping them back into their original bodies. Plus you're allowed one free mistake after 15 overtakes? Is that it? Again, you just make the rules up. Lewis is more to blame, he's coming from too far back, assuming Button will move, and damaging his wing, when with some patience at a point not too far ahead, he could have had another more realistic crack, make his intentions perfectly clear with no surprise to Button so he moves out the way, Lewis not damage his wing, and who knows, maybe win. Not so outlandish.

[Roth]

such verbal somersaulting and all to avoid saying what you really feel lest you be found out... life at home must be really tough for some kids.

[youtube]V9AbeALNVkk[/youtube]

Really? A youtube clip? That's all you've got?

[Roth]

:hehe: life at home must be really tough for some kids.

And I've warned you about the kids thing. You're getting very personal. I shouldn't need to tell you it's a no, no.

[What's Burning?]

such verbal somersaulting and all to avoid saying what you really feel lest you be found out... life at home must be really tough for some kids.

[youtube]V9AbeALNVkk[/youtube]

Really? A youtube clip? That's all you've got?

That's all your arguments are worth. Thin veneer indeed. It's probably best we don't continue to littler the thread with garbage though. Let's look forward to next week's GP I'm sure you can't wait to point all the mental collapses a certain driver will make, all in the name of the sport you love. right.

[Roth]

Wow, you just don't know when to stop.

[Hammer278]

Damn man so many blocks of text...all I ended up 'reading' is WBs youtube clip.

[sagi58]

Damn man so many blocks of text...all I ended up 'reading' is WBs youtube clip.

[racechick]

Actually, I commented on Hammers criticism, I didn't just let it pass. I call things as I see them.

RyRy wasn't criticising me, he was saying you were over critical of Hamilton.

What blame am I supposed to have shifted from Hamilton? What is he guilty of?

I'm an F1 fan and a Hamilton fan. I was an F1 fan before Hamilton entered the sport and I'll still be one when he leaves it. I have a current favourite, I've had favourites before and I'll have favourites again....there a couple in the pipeline already

I'm a teacher, I see a lot of kids and parents, I can't see the relevance of your comment. This is about how you support your favourite driver not bring up your kids.

Edit: that was in response to Roths last post, there have been a couple in between.

Just because RyRy said I was overly critical doesn't mean anything. It's the same as if you criticise me. It's just another person's opinion. It holds the same weight as yours, but i don't lump you into any kind of group. You don't consider me a Hamilton fan because I knock him. So there's fanboys, people who don't necessarily see anything wrong in how he drove at the weekend, and non Hamilton people. Let's ignore all the nice things I've ever said about him, then label me a non follower. You see how i could get confused by you and others telling me where i stand in the fan stakes. Like i said to WB, you don't get to decide.

"What blame am I supposed to have shifted from Hamilton? What is he guilty of?"

This is a perfect example. It's that complete unwillingness to see anything wrong in any performance other than when it's impossible to deny. It's always, Nico this, stewards that, luck the other.

I reiterated my point about the parents in a WB reply. My wife's a teacher also, and she's forever complaining about parents who think their kid's a perfect genius, telling her how to do her job, when apparently they're slightly above average intelligence with an attitude problem. Maybe you're just lucky, I don't know.

Yes you do lump me in a group, you call me a ' Hamilton fanboy'.

I am completely unwilling to see wrong where it isn't, when it is I day so. A racing incident is not Wrong I watched the race on tele last night to see the bits I'd missed at the live race. There were loads of little racing incidents between drivers, yet, Lewis was ragged???.

I've not told you where you stand in the fan stakes. I know you appreciate Hamilton, that doesn't mean I can't call you out when I think you're wrong.

I've also had parents you describe in my class. I have to work extra hard with those parents to explain what their children need, be it better inter personal skills, an ability to think for themselves, to be creative, to actually use their knowledge and skills rather than rote learn. I generally have them on side by the end of the year. Still don't see the relevance.

[Roth]

Yes you do lump me in a group, you call me a ' Hamilton fanboy'.

I am completely unwilling to see wrong where it isn't, when it is I day so. A racing incident is not Wrong I watched the race on tele last night to see the bits I'd missed at the live race. There were loads of little racing incidents between drivers, yet, Lewis was ragged???.

I've not told you where you stand in the fan stakes. I know you appreciate Hamilton, that doesn't mean I can't call you out when I think you're wrong.

I've also had parents you describe in my class. I have to work extra hard with those parents to explain what their children need, be it better inter personal skills, an ability to think for themselves, to be creative, to actually use their knowledge and skills rather than rote learn. I generally have them on side by the end of the year. Still don't see the relevance.

It wasn't one incident it was a few overtakes and his handling of his last two sets of tires. We applaud him for keeping his softs going for so long and ignore he ripped up his supers in an unnecessary dash to the finish. If you've got a tire that's degrading faster than normal because your wing's broken, chasing two slower cars on different strategies, with Bottas on a two stop, why rush up to them, lose the life, then spend half a dozen frustrating laps behind a car with great traction? Extra life in the tires might have see him pass. They switched to a three stop to avoid this situation. I don't know if it's poor pit advice or Hamilton being too eager but between them they didn't do the right thing once that strategy had been decided on. He was never going to catch Rosberg so what was the point?

You don't see the relevance that people can be biased when they feel strongly about something, and lack a certain impartiality? That's basic human nature, not some left-field revelation. That some passionate fans might be that way is not relevant?