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[myownalias]

In the 1950s, it was common for a slower driver to surrender his car to a faster teammate who's car was on the mend. Team orders are part of F1's birthright. They will never -- can never -- truly be abolished.

Yes it can; it is enforceable; but the governing body isn't willing to regulate the sport fully; the new 2003 rules was brought in to appease the fans who were outraged by Ferrari's actions of Austria 2002, yet it has never been enforced despite numerous teams implementing team orders, it's a comedy rule; it squeaks when you squeeze it!!

[scotty]

Yes it can; it is enforceable

It's not though, not without setting dangerous precidents. Say a team switches their drivers using a pit stop, how can that be absolutely proven? It can't, and therefore it can never be completely enforcable.

[myownalias]

Yes it can; it is enforceable

It's not though, not without setting dangerous precidents. Say a team switches their drivers using a pit stop, how can that be absolutely proven? It can't, and therefore it can never be completely enforcable.

Obviously there are ways to implement team orders covertly but in recent times teams have been fairly blatant about it; one driver blending the throttle to allow his team mate pass; that's fairly easy to prove, just look at the telemetry, suddenly slowing allowing his team mate pass only to continue on at his previous pace immediately afterwards. Although I don't like team orders, it's the lesser of two evils if it's done in a covert manner; every time I see a switcheroo on the track it taints the whole race and season if a driver wins a WDC by less than the amount of points gained! F1 is not under constant scrutiny, every move is analysed by the media and fans because of the recent team orders scandals! Is that a good thing for F1? no it is not; F1 needs positive publicity, not more negative, I'm a fairly hardcore fan and even I sometimes don't bother watching races; so how do you think the floating viewers feel, many fans including myself feel cheated when team orders are used, these drivers are supposed to be the best in the world; why can't they race each other without taking each other off the track, which is the general excuse used by teams!

[scotty]

For me it is a far bigger attempt to insult everyone's intelligence if they do it covertly. But then they have to do it to successfully use that 'loophole' in the rules. Regarding throttle lifting and stuff, if they started checking the telemetery there'd merely be a lot more 'accidental' pushing of speed limiter buttons... and to be blunt, i honestly couldn't give a damn about part time fans and their opinions, as they really have nothing to do with me.

Everyone feels cheated by team orders when they are blatant but apparently there is some allowance when it is subtle. I really cannot understand that. Regardless, i truly hate team orders but at the same time accept that they happen, because really we have no choice and there is no reasonable way of stopping them. Fred_C_Dobbs made the point of team orders being intrinsically involved in F1 and that is entirely true.

[nish2280]

For me it is a far bigger attempt to insult everyone's intelligence if they do it covertly. But then they have to do it to successfully use that 'loophole' in the rules. Regarding throttle lifting and stuff, if they started checking the telemetery there'd merely be a lot more 'accidental' pushing of speed limiter buttons... and to be blunt, i honestly couldn't give a damn about part time fans and their opinions, as they really have nothing to do with me.

Everyone feels cheated by team orders when they are blatant but apparently there is some allowance when it is subtle. I really cannot understand that. Regardless, i truly hate team orders but at the same time accept that they happen, because really we have no choice and there is no reasonable way of stopping them. Fred_C_Dobbs made the point of team orders being intrinsically involved in F1 and that is entirely true.

I think as far as fans are concerned the team should be blatant with the fans but not with the FIA, if thats possible though.

[vaptin]

For me it is a far bigger attempt to insult everyone's intelligence if they do it covertly. But then they have to do it to successfully use that 'loophole' in the rules. Regarding throttle lifting and stuff, if they started checking the telemetery there'd merely be a lot more 'accidental' pushing of speed limiter buttons... and to be blunt, i honestly couldn't give a damn about part time fans and their opinions, as they really have nothing to do with me.

Everyone feels cheated by team orders when they are blatant but apparently there is some allowance when it is subtle. I really cannot understand that. Regardless, i truly hate team orders but at the same time accept that they happen, because really we have no choice and there is no reasonable way of stopping them. Fred_C_Dobbs made the point of team orders being intrinsically involved in F1 and that is entirely true.

I think as far as fans are concerned the team should be blatant with the fans but not with the FIA, if thats possible though.

The old version of the rule then,

I think they'd be a lot less reaction if the teams could openly admit the time they do use team orders, having it covered up just leads to fans feeling like the teams think they're stupid, don't like being lied to, and also gives the impression it happens a lot we just don't know about it.

If the teams could admit it, people would feel bad for the driver and the lack of an on track battle, but not read any more into it. Ie the rest of the time they'd not worry about team orders being in use, because their told about it. Also removes the "scandal element" and stops it being a big story (outside f1).

[myownalias]

Ultimately all these team orders controversies come from Ferrari's 2002 Austria fiasco; before that admittedly I knew team orders happened but didn't really give it much thought. It was Ferrari's disregard for people's intelligence when they switched Schumacher and Barrichello meters before the finish line and since then team orders have been put into the spotlight and having radio communications available to the public had just made the situation worse as every radio communication is scrutinised. As for not caring about the floating viewers; we should, I suspect they outnumber the hardcore fans that stay up late and get up early to watch races, without those floating fans; I wonder how many seats would be empty at each race? It'll be an interesting statistic to see what percentage of "fans" only watch races that are on in the middle of the afternoon compared to hardcore fans who will forego sleep to watch a races from the far east?

[vaptin]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

[darwin dali]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

Australia 02?

[vaptin]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

Australia 02?

Leave me alone dd, I've not had my dinner yet, and I've written it so many times its starting to blur.

[darwin dali]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

Australia 02?

Leave me alone dd, I've not had my dinner yet, and I've written it so many times its starting to blur.

Well, it's Arnold vs. Roos - I think there's quite a discernible difference

[vaptin]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

Australia 02?

Leave me alone dd, I've not had my dinner yet, and I've written it so many times its starting to blur.

Well, it's Arnold vs. Roos - I think there's quite a discernible difference

They both begin with Aus!

Although one speaks some strange foreign language and the other speaks German

[myownalias]

Yes, the problem was Australia 02, in which case Ferrari took it too far (ie it was clearly unnecessary), but they were punished for it under that rule. The new rule didn't stop team orders, and caused a problem when it became apparent.

Australia 02?

Vaptin; are you related to George W Bush perchance? he has troubles differentiating between Austria and Australia as well

[vaptin]

I demand it be kept on record that I've resisted the urge to edit my post.

[myownalias]

I demand it be kept on record that I've resisted the urge to edit my post.

Ah, but you can't edit the quotes... and only a moderator/admin can edit without leaving a "last edited by" at the bottom of the post