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#215138
Yes, but you can't punish someone if you can't catch them at it, there's not much downside to the team cheating if they don't get caught.

Well sure, but that doesn't mean we can't criticise them for it. Cheating is cheating.


True, although harsher criticism should be at the FIA scrutineers?

Not only that, but how do we know if they're cheating?
#215142
So now it's ok to chastise someone for 'cheating' when in actual fact they determine the legality of their own parts using the general scrutineering tests they would have during a race weekend. Good one. It's not the team's fault if the system is flawed.

Furthermore (and regardless of this above point) there is a difference between cheating and using a loophole in the system. 'Cheating in a clever manner' is exploiting a loophole, which is exactly the same as the double diffuser last season.
#215146
Jensonb, the FIA can see the same evidence (and more) of the Red Bull front wing flexing, but in the eyes of the FIA, it is LEGAL! The governing body needs to tighten up its rules if it wants the part to remain within that flex tolerance during the race, they need to change the rules and measure the part in a wind tunnel to see how it reacts in "real world" situations. As the rule stands with the testing needing to be performed in a static position on a flat, level surface and the car has to pass this static test at any given point during the race weekend to remain legal, non static testing is not required therefore the part is legal. The part is very likely to react differently out on the track with lateral and horizontal G-forces affecting the part; but under the current regulations the part is legal according the technical requirements.

And before you come back with another condescending post, I fully understand what you are trying to get across; I simply do not agree for the above reason!
#215162
Jensonb, the FIA can see the same evidence (and more) of the Red Bull front wing flexing, but in the eyes of the FIA, it is LEGAL! The governing body needs to tighten up its rules if it wants the part to remain within that flex tolerance during the race, they need to change the rules and measure the part in a wind tunnel to see how it reacts in "real world" situations. As the rule stands with the testing needing to be performed in a static position on a flat, level surface and the car has to pass this static test at any given point during the race weekend to remain legal, non static testing is not required therefore the part is legal. The part is very likely to react differently out on the track with lateral and horizontal G-forces affecting the part; but under the current regulations the part is legal according the technical requirements.

And before you come back with another condescending post, I fully understand what you are trying to get across; I simply do not agree for the above reason!

If you don't want to be condescended to, you might consider not repeatedly handwaving the entire point of the person you're talking to's argument.
#215182
So now it's ok to chastise someone for 'cheating' when in actual fact they determine the legality of their own parts using the general scrutineering tests they would have during a race weekend. Good one. It's not the team's fault if the system is flawed.

Furthermore (and regardless of this above point) there is a difference between cheating and using a loophole in the system. 'Cheating in a clever manner' is exploiting a loophole, which is exactly the same as the double diffuser last season.

F1 has a long and storied history of too clever engineers finding wiggle room in sloppily-written regulations, and the sport is the better for it. Like the 6-wheeled Tyrell P-34 (four front tyres), and the Brabham BT46B ‘Fan car’ which had ground effects by means of an engine-driven fan [s]ucking it to the track. Sometimes the innovation subsequently is banned (like the Brabham, which was outlawed after winning its inaugural race), sometimes it leads F1 in a new direction, and occasionally it rewrites the record book.

Colin Chapman introduced the raised rear wing with the Lotus 49B. The FIA decided it wasn't in keeping with the spirit of the rules so they banned it. Chapman responded with the Lotus 49C and an improved wing that was mounted close enough to the chassis to skirt the new FIA rule but still provide superior downforce. The multi-element rear wing of the 49C has more than a passing resemblance to the rear wing of today's F1 cars.

The classic example of this "loophole hunting" comes not from F1 but from, of all places, NASCAR. All his competitors agreed that legendary tuner Smokey Yunick's cars simply went too far on a single tank of fuel. So they complained en masse to the stewards, who summoned Smokey's car for a tech inspection. They removed the fuel tank from the car and placed on the inspection bench. When finished, they told Smokey they had found "X" number of irregularities with his car (the exact number is in dispute) but his fuel tank was not among them; it was legal.

Upon which Smokey got in the car, told them, "Well, boys, here's one more" and he started the car and drove away with his fuel tank still sitting on the inspection bench.

NASCAR's rules prescribed a flexible 2" fuel hose running from the tank to the carburettor. What they failed to codify was how long that hose could be. So Smokey used an 11-foot long coil of fuel hose that snaked through the chassis and wound around the frame's rails that held 19 litres of petrol, independent of the fuel tank!

F1's TRs by their nature inhibit innovation. Can you imagine how pathetic the sport would be if the geniuses who build these marvelous cars were as unimaginative as the small-minded twits who write those regulations? The designers have to exploit the chinks in the armor or the sport will stagnate, wither on the vine, and die.
#215194
Here's an engineer explaining why it is that passing the FiA's scrutineering test for wing flexing does not guarantee the part is legal:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=41889

That's an interesting article but it doesn't negate the fact that it's a static test in one direction, that is the requirements to be classed as legal, in scrutineering or when tested by the FIA before the wing is passed for use in-race. What it does out of the track is irrelevant really as that is not part of the legality test, all teams will manufacture their parts to [barely] pass the static tests. Let's face it; McLaren brought this issue to the FIA's attention because they could not copy the design, McLaren and many other teams had to make alterations to their floor to pass the new tests implemented at Monza, which means that most teams floors were flexing more than allowed under race conditions!

No no no no :banghead:

That statement is the very definition of a wallbanger. The rule is about the part, not about its ability to pass the test. The test is supposed to prove one way or the other if the part complies with the rule. The fact is it does not, actually, prove this. So passing Scrutineering:

A - Does not prove the car is legal
and
B - Is not how the part is defined as legal or illegal. It is illegal if it flexes in the manner the rules describe as being banned, whether it does it in the Test or not.

You are essentially saying that it's not cheating if you don't get caught. Which is baloney. It's just cheating in a clever manner.


So basically you're accusing McLaren of "cheating in a clever manner" with the F-Duct.
#215262
Here's an engineer explaining why it is that passing the FiA's scrutineering test for wing flexing does not guarantee the part is legal:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=41889

That's an interesting article but it doesn't negate the fact that it's a static test in one direction, that is the requirements to be classed as legal, in scrutineering or when tested by the FIA before the wing is passed for use in-race. What it does out of the track is irrelevant really as that is not part of the legality test, all teams will manufacture their parts to [barely] pass the static tests. Let's face it; McLaren brought this issue to the FIA's attention because they could not copy the design, McLaren and many other teams had to make alterations to their floor to pass the new tests implemented at Monza, which means that most teams floors were flexing more than allowed under race conditions!

No no no no :banghead:

That statement is the very definition of a wallbanger. The rule is about the part, not about its ability to pass the test. The test is supposed to prove one way or the other if the part complies with the rule. The fact is it does not, actually, prove this. So passing Scrutineering:

A - Does not prove the car is legal
and
B - Is not how the part is defined as legal or illegal. It is illegal if it flexes in the manner the rules describe as being banned, whether it does it in the Test or not.

You are essentially saying that it's not cheating if you don't get caught. Which is baloney. It's just cheating in a clever manner.


So basically you're accusing McLaren of "cheating in a clever manner" with the F-Duct.

No, because the F-Duct is completely legal. What part of this is it you don't understand? The wing is illegal if it flexes at all. It's not a loophole, it's a flaw in the FiA's methods.
#215272
So basically you're accusing McLaren of "cheating in a clever manner" with the F-Duct.

No, because the F-Duct is completely legal. What part of this is it you don't understand? The wing is illegal if it flexes at all. It's not a loophole, it's a flaw in the FiA's methods.


Completely legal because its from McLaren?

The accusations about the F-Duct are exactly what you are complaining about the RB6 front wing. In fact the F-Duct is claimed to be illegal for 2 reasons, whereas the front wing is supposedly illegal for one reason, flexing.
The specific complaints about the F-Duct are:-
1) the additional pressure created when the duct valve is opened flexes the rear wing
2) all areos are supposed to be non-moving, yet the F-Duct operation relies on movement

Let me say, that I like both the RB6 front wing and the F-Duct, I'm simply pointing out your bias. That "your" teams innovation is ok, but other teams innovations are cheating.

I think we should support clever technology and encourage it. I want to see more innovation, not less.
#215275
Spanky, JensonB is a Jenson Button fan, If Jenson were to go to Ferrari would that make him a Ferrari fan?


Dunno, you'll have to ask him
User avatar
By f1ea
#215290
No, because the F-Duct is completely legal. What part of this is it you don't understand? The wing is illegal if it flexes at all. It's not a loophole, it's a flaw in the FiA's methods.


Wrong. The wing is illegal if it flexes more than 10mm under X kg of static load (as applied in the test). It is also illegal, if it does not flex 20mm (or double whatever it flexed initially) under 2X kgs of static load.

The wing can flex. It simply has to flex within conditions as specified by the tests.
#215293
Let's have a spec car series where the FIA provide the whole car with a sign saying "Insert driver here" - then there can be no calls of illegal f-duct or illegal flexing wing! :twisted:
#215301
Let's have a spec car series where the FIA provide the whole car with a sign saying "Insert driver here" - then there can be no calls of illegal f-duct or illegal flexing wing! :twisted:


Let's call it A1 :D
#215303
No, because the F-Duct is completely legal. What part of this is it you don't understand? The wing is illegal if it flexes at all. It's not a loophole, it's a flaw in the FiA's methods.



You rant and rave about the rules and the Red Bull/Ferrari wing being illegal so much and so often that you must be an expert on the rulebook. With that said...please show me the rule that says "The wing is illegal if it flexes at all." I'll bet a set of hoosiers that you have never seen an FIA rulebook, wouldn't know where to find it and likely couldn't understand it if you did. Still, here you are lecturing others on what the rule is...despite apparently have no knowledge whatsoever as to what that rules actually says.

By the way....you are wrong.
User avatar
By bud
#215304
Let's have a spec car series where the FIA provide the whole car with a sign saying "Insert driver here" - then there can be no calls of illegal f-duct or illegal flexing wing! :twisted:


its called F2
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