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[billindenver]

OK, maybe it was a bad analogy in hindsight, but Massa should be given equal standing, pulling the team order eleven races into the season was harsh on Massa, we will never know what psychological damage that has done to Massa, if he was allowed to win, maybe he would have went on to win other races. Another analogy; if you constantly get passed over for promotion, you tend not to try so hard to do the best job possible or look for alternative employment!

Racing drivers learn to deal with disappointment far before they end up in an F1 car. Cars fail, teams send you down the pitlane with your fuel hose attached etc.... and that's at F1's level. The levels below that are even more apt to disappoint. If one race has really caused Massa's mystical psyche to shatter...the man needs to get out of a race car. I would say Button getting T-boned in a braking area by Vettel was more disappointment than Massa being forced to stand on the second step. Hamilton's wheel departing, Webber's airborne excursion, Webber being taken out of the race lead by Vettel, Schumachers complete inability to compete....there are many many incidents this year that have to be harder to handle than Massa being on the podium but not winning. Hamilton threw the championship away, for the second time...and I don't see anyone crying for his pschological damage. I'm not fan of Hamilton, but at least he isn't in a position where untold numbers of fans make excuses for his shattered ability to compete. He's a racing driver...he bounces back and makes another run at it. Massa is far less of a driver...and considering the money he is paid to drive a race car, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if he really is that soft. If you are right and Germany caused him psychological damage that affected the rest of his season....he needs to be replaced immediately by a driver with some balls.

The team spent most of Germany trying desperately to get Massa to pick up the pace before they either did or did not issue a team order. Massa put himself in the position he ended up in, and your suggestion that it was a season long #2 position is laughable. Nothing suggests that, other than your imagination.

[racechick]

OK, maybe it was a bad analogy in hindsight, but Massa should be given equal standing, pulling the team order eleven races into the season was harsh on Massa, we will never know what psychological damage that has done to Massa, if he was allowed to win, maybe he would have went on to win other races. Another analogy; if you constantly get passed over for promotion, you tend not to try so hard to do the best job possible or look for alternative employment!

Racing drivers learn to deal with disappointment far before they end up in an F1 car. Cars fail, teams send you down the pitlane with your fuel hose attached etc.... and that's at F1's level. The levels below that are even more apt to disappoint. If one race has really caused Massa's mystical psyche to shatter...the man needs to get out of a race car. I would say Button getting T-boned in a braking area by Vettel was more disappointment than Massa being forced to stand on the second step. Hamilton's wheel departing, Webber's airborne excursion, Webber being taken out of the race lead by Vettel, Schumachers complete inability to compete....there are many many incidents this year that have to be harder to handle than Massa being on the podium but not winning. Hamilton threw the championship away, for the second time...and I don't see anyone crying for his pschological damage. I'm not fan of Hamilton, but at least he isn't in a position where untold numbers of fans make excuses for his shattered ability to compete. He's a racing driver...he bounces back and makes another run at it. Massa is far less of a driver...and considering the money he is paid to drive a race car, I'm not going to feel sorry for him if he really is that soft. If you are right and Germany caused him psychological damage that affected the rest of his season....he needs to be replaced immediately by a driver with some balls.

The team spent most of Germany trying desperately to get Massa to pick up the pace before they either did or did not issue a team order. Massa put himself in the position he ended up in, and your suggestion that it was a season long #2 position is laughable. Nothing suggests that, other than your imagination.

What do you mean "Hamilton threw the championship away for the second time" ???? He's no more thrown away the championship than any other of the campionship contenders who dont end up winning. His car is hardly up to challenging but he's been thereabouts. Why do you have to single him out.

[Four mules as one]

If one race has really caused Massa's mystical psyche to shatter...the man needs to get out of a race car.

Fully agree on this, this is way too much emotion getting in the way of someone who is sitting in the seat of a Ferrari Formula One car. Clearly he's been there too long and needs to change team or just get out of F1 altogether. Time to put in someone with a bit more fire in their belly.

[spankyham]

What do you mean "Hamilton threw the championship away for the second time" ???? He's no more thrown away the championship than any other of the campionship contenders who dont end up winning. His car is hardly up to challenging but he's been thereabouts. Why do you have to single him out.

2007 - China Brazil
This year - Monza etc.

I don't agree that the MP4-25 is not up to the challenge. Think you're selling the team a bit short with that comment. As I posted in the AD thread - which car produced the fastest lap at Brazil in the race last weekend? And it was done when both Seb and Fernando were rattling off their fastest laps!

[billindenver]

What do you mean "Hamilton threw the championship away for the second time" ???? He's no more thrown away the championship than any other of the campionship contenders who dont end up winning. His car is hardly up to challenging but he's been thereabouts. Why do you have to single him out.

What I meant was that twice he has enjoyed a large lead in the championship and then tossed it away by making mistakes. That is a bit different than Vettle's engine blowing up. Webber is certainly guilty of tossing the championship, but he crashed once...in very poor conditions and was not attempting an ill fated pass at the time. Even the guys at SPEED said that it was very un-Webber like for him to make that one mistake..despite the conditions. Hamilton's two mistakes were made while being overly aggressive in good conditions....which he has shown a tendency to do in past years. This year, had he shown some patience and not pushed for passes that were not meant to be....he would not have crashed out and he would have sewn this championship up. You are right though, he is far from the only driver to have done something to ruin their chances.

He is handling it better this year than in the past though and while I'm beginning to warm to the maturity he is showing...I can still tweak the fans who feel he is perfection incarnate when his performances have been nothing like it. He has been in a car capable of winning the championship in three of the four years he's been in F1...and he has made mistakes while leading the points that have destroyed his chances twice. He is talented, and his maturity is certainly getting better...but he has a ways to go yet.

[Hammer278]

Wow. Pretty objective stuff there billi.

I have to agree Lewis could've done better this year. His Monza episode was a howler, and he could have managed the overtake on Webber a bit better.

But you have to give him the credit for keeping the car in contention when it was never the fastest car on track, except for maybe in Canada. Everywhere else, the McLaren and Ferrari were playing catchup.

And lets not forget Alonso made a few muck ups earlier in the season, jumpstarts and cutting across another car by taking shortcuts on the track aren't exactly 2X WDC worthy. He's been very fortunate for Redbulls slipups and the fact that McLaren were not able to keep up with developments. Out of the drivers, the most pressure was on the McLarens as they have found themselves consistently 3rd best (but not by far) in the 2nd part of the season.

[billindenver]

McLaren have fallen off of late, but saying they have been third best all year is a big stretch. Their f-duct gave them a huge advantage in the beginning of the year and that advantage lasted quite a while. Their car was competitive enough to put Lewis well and truly out front in championship points. I just don't see how McLaren fans can claim an inferior car....the car would have locked the championship by now if the driver had been a bit more...let's call it conservative. It's been a good car.

While Hamilton has in the past been the driver most guilty of throwing away opportunities, and he did this year to an extent as well....this year the man wearing the Dunce Crown has to be Vettel. In fact, I think he has outshown even Hamilton's rookie year of mistakes. Vettel's car has been utterly dominant and he has proven repeatedly that it was the class of the race....yet he completely botched the season. Hamilton hasn't ever crashed his teammate out of the lead to my memory. He's never broadsided a car that was in front of him either (that took talent to pull off). I despise both Alonso and Hamilton's tendency to whine over the radio but Vettel takes it to an entirely new level. And...there is that finger. He reminds me of early Hamilton a bit. Talented and overly confident with a disregard for anyone but himself. Hamilton is getting better with age though....will Vettel? Will Vettel develop a rabid pack of fans who constantly flood the net with their religious devotion? Only time will tell. It sure has been an entertaining year.

[texasmr2]

Will Vettel develop a rabid pack of fans who constantly flood the net with their religious devotion?

[Big Azza]

Will Vettel develop a rabid pack of fans who constantly flood the net with their religious devotion?

Isn't one enough?

In 4 days he will be a World Champion. You will see a few more.

[texasmr2]

Will Vettel develop a rabid pack of fans who constantly flood the net with their religious devotion?

Isn't one enough?

In 4 days he will be a World Champion. You will see a few more.

If he is good for him but if he is not get ready .

[Hammer278]

McLaren have fallen off of late, but saying they have been third best all year is a big stretch. Their f-duct gave them a huge advantage in the beginning of the year and that advantage lasted quite a while. Their car was competitive enough to put Lewis well and truly out front in championship points. I just don't see how McLaren fans can claim an inferior car....the car would have locked the championship by now if the driver had been a bit more...let's call it conservative. It's been a good car.

While Hamilton has in the past been the driver most guilty of throwing away opportunities, and he did this year to an extent as well....this year the man wearing the Dunce Crown has to be Vettel. In fact, I think he has outshown even Hamilton's rookie year of mistakes. Vettel's car has been utterly dominant and he has proven repeatedly that it was the class of the race....yet he completely botched the season. Hamilton hasn't ever crashed his teammate out of the lead to my memory. He's never broadsided a car that was in front of him either (that took talent to pull off). I despise both Alonso and Hamilton's tendency to whine over the radio but Vettel takes it to an entirely new level. And...there is that finger. He reminds me of early Hamilton a bit. Talented and overly confident with a disregard for anyone but himself. Hamilton is getting better with age though....will Vettel? Will Vettel develop a rabid pack of fans who constantly flood the net with their religious devotion? Only time will tell. It sure has been an entertaining year.

As stated earlier, 3rd best for the 2nd half of the season. But they were never the best car to have. It just shows, except for those 2 races Lewis' thought process failed, he's done an exceptional job to still be in the hunt till the last race. Barely.

[texasmr2]

So anyway frankly I'm disappointed with Massa's performance, how long before he replaces Giancarlo??

[kaizensuru]

... it's easy to become world champion when you don't have a competitive team mate and clear #1 status...

I just can't believe that I read this.

No, my dear forumer, it surely is not easy by any means, even less when you ar fighting the 1 championship against a fastest McLaren in one year driving by Kimi Raikkonen and another year against no other than Michael Schumacher in a Ferrari. In those cases you need all support you can get.

Alonso has earned his right to be fully supported by his team. Can you really say the same thing about Massa? And I don't mean being the other teammate Fernando Alonso, being anyone, if whoever is your teammate you are constantly slower than him by more than 4 tenths on average, why on earth should your team focus on you, or even focus on both drivers equally?

[texasmr2]

Massa has earned the right to be supported by the team, if not more, than Alonso.

[sgh]

Could get interesting. I think Ferrari will get someone young for next year. I think Massa will be out, not because he's unskilled, but because Ferrari wants to develop someone along side a big-name driver.

IMO, Massa could be the 1st driver anywhere except where Alonso is driving, skill wise. Obviously, nobody out-mcclarens Hamilton. But first driver at virtually all the other teams is up for grabs IMO. If that's what he wants, he's got places to be that guy. Renault would be a good move for him, IMO.

I just want to see Alonso and Kimi on the same team. I would die.