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[What's Burning?]

Here we go again. The same old whiners singing the same old tired song. They didn't have a problem when McLaren harped on about saving fuel...which was openly acknowledged in the press as being team orders for Button to not attempt another pass on Hammy. If you don't want it to be a team sport, then race one car per team. Otherwise, this is the reality of racing. All racing. The team is the important thing, as Massa said in the interview afterwards.

When Red Bull let their two drivers 'work it out' on the track, they quite possibly cost themselves a championship. Two team mates, in fairly equal cars with one of them being faster but not overwhelmingly so....trying to fight it out on track is stupid. That's right....it's blatantly, amateurish and stupid. You don't bang up your own team cars trying to force a pass when it is clear which car is faster. All Massa had to do was match Alonso's pace and the team wouldn't have asked him to move over. But Alonso dropped three seconds back and then reeled him in in what, 3 laps? That showed the team his pace and the team didn't have a choice but to put the fast guy in front. Massa couldn't even hold on to his draft. Alonso left him for dead....after following in his dirty air and scrubbing his tires for so long. Massa didn't have an answer for Alonso today...which is a shame...I would have loved to see Massa on the top step. Vettel was all over Massa shortly thereafter...should Alonso have slowed up even further to hold Vettel off of Massa?

The fastest guy won the race. Isn't that what racing is supposed to be? Everyone condemned Vettel and Red Bull for being such idiots and they still talk about how the team isn't 'old and wise' enough to have properly handled Vettel wanting by Webber. Well folks, you saw today how 'old and wise' handle that situation. The faster car takes the lead and leaves the slower car to deal with the hounds nipping at his heels. That is how F1 has been since before most of these complainers were born. It's a team sport. You don't chance ruining millions in sponsorship, points and certainly car parts by going wheel to wheel with you team mate. That would be just stupid. McLaren reeled their boys in when they did it...and they took 1st and 2nd. Red Bull did not...and they lost BOTH the driving and constructors championship lead when the two drivers collided.

I can't blame Ferrari for avoiding that situation. Massa is desperate to prove something about himself that isn't true. He has NEVER been the equal of his teammate...no matter who that teammate is, yet he is desperate to prove that he is. You don't let two team mates battle it out when one of them is that desperate. That would be....well....Red Bull.

Your judgment is a little clouded here. They could have let them race and the team orders "should" have been race but make sure that it's clean, we need to make sure we get a 1-2 finish here boys.

Ferrari has managed to make a 1-2 finish, showing their cars have improved in leaps and bounds into a stain that could possibly take them out of this year's contention all together. WTF!?!?! Everyone knows what happened to Red Bull should never happen to a professionally controlled team. Ferrari had their eggs in the basket, just not in the order they wanted them. I'm ok with the team trying to maximize the win for Alonso's WDC contention... but team orders are ILLEGAL, like it or not. You're also completely neglecting the fact that the fastest guy never passed the guy in front of him. It's BS on your part that being the fastest guy on the track automatically clears Ferrari from making the decision when you know how difficult it is to pass the car in front of you... remember Kubica last race? Alonso was faster than him too.

Ferrari stole from you the joy of seeing Alonso overtake Massa cleanly and earn his second win of the year. You're defending Ferrari for that?

[Serio27]

@billindenver - Very well said

@peng - I believe team orders should exist because of the constructor's championship. To me it does not make sense for teams to compete against one another. Yet, teammates are not able to work together to beat other teams. Tell me another sport where teammates are not allowed to work together as a team in order to win as a group. Now, I know this argument is one sided there is of course the WDC to consider as well. I won't get into that now but will tell you that. I would have rather seen Alonso take the fight to Massa. Atleast, a mclaren fight not a red bull fight.

Anyway, The fact is team orders currently exist and we see it race after race. Today obviously was more blatant than others. However, if team orders were allowed then this would possibly add another dynamic or ruin the sport completely I know i'm contradicting myself now you just never know)

I do not agree with each team having one car but wouldn't be opposed to having one point system either the WDC or constructor's. I definitely feel that having two point systems is the culprit here.

Serio

[What's Burning?]

@billindenver - Very well said

@peng - I believe team orders should exist because of the constructor's championship. To me it does not make sense for teams to compete against one another. Yet, teammates are not able to work together to beat other teams. Tell me another sport where teammates are not allowed to work together as a team in order to win as a group. Now, I know this argument is one sided there is of course the WDC to consider as well. I won't get into that now but will tell you that. I would have rather seen Alonso take the fight to Massa. Atleast, a mclaren fight not a red bull fight.

Anyway, The fact is team orders currently exist and we see it race after race. Today obviously was more blatant than others. However, if team orders were allowed then this would possibly add another dynamic or ruin the sport completely I know i'm contradicting myself now you just never know)

I do not agree with each team having one car but wouldn't be opposed to having one point system either the WDC or constructor's. I definitely feel that having two point systems is the culprit here.

Serio

Serious flaw to your argument there bub... Ferrari already had a 1-2 this team order was for the WDC not the WCC.

[AngelesoinsectoS]

@billindenver - Very well said

@peng - I believe team orders should exist because of the constructor's championship. To me it does not make sense for teams to compete against one another. Yet, teammates are not able to work together to beat other teams. Tell me another sport where teammates are not allowed to work together as a team in order to win as a group. Now, I know this argument is one sided there is of course the WDC to consider as well. I won't get into that now but will tell you that. I would have rather seen Alonso take the fight to Massa. Atleast, a mclaren fight not a red bull fight.

Anyway, The fact is team orders currently exist and we see it race after race. Today obviously was more blatant than others. However, if team orders were allowed then this would possibly add another dynamic or ruin the sport completely I know i'm contradicting myself now you just never know)

I do not agree with each team having one car but wouldn't be opposed to having one point system either the WDC or constructor's. I definitely feel that having two point systems is the culprit here.

Serio

Serious flaw to your argument there bub... Ferrari already had a 1-2 this team order was for the WDC not the WCC.

Massa was slowing FA down and they could have been caught by Vettel and then again you forget about the embarrasing teammate crash possibility, so there were chances of not getting the 1-2, to me it's a smart move trying to keep the fast driver in front.

[What's Burning?]

@billindenver - Very well said

@peng - I believe team orders should exist because of the constructor's championship. To me it does not make sense for teams to compete against one another. Yet, teammates are not able to work together to beat other teams. Tell me another sport where teammates are not allowed to work together as a team in order to win as a group. Now, I know this argument is one sided there is of course the WDC to consider as well. I won't get into that now but will tell you that. I would have rather seen Alonso take the fight to Massa. Atleast, a mclaren fight not a red bull fight.

Anyway, The fact is team orders currently exist and we see it race after race. Today obviously was more blatant than others. However, if team orders were allowed then this would possibly add another dynamic or ruin the sport completely I know i'm contradicting myself now you just never know)

I do not agree with each team having one car but wouldn't be opposed to having one point system either the WDC or constructor's. I definitely feel that having two point systems is the culprit here.

Serio

it would have been MUCH harder for Vettle to pass the "fast" driver than the "slow" driver.

Serious flaw to your argument there bub... Ferrari already had a 1-2 this team order was for the WDC not the WCC.

Massa was slowing FA down and they could have been caught by Vettel and then again you forget about the embarrasing teammate crash possibility, so there were chances of not getting the 1-2, to me it's a smart move trying to keep the fast driver in front.

[rick n]

BillinDenver... you nailed it 100%. Saved me a lot of typing. And to those who say "but it's illegal!" I say it's a fact of life, every team does it, just not as ungracefully as Ferrari. Live with it. You feel deprived of honest racing action? A simple order to "don't take out you team mate" is a team order. Wisely backing off is no less of a withholding of true racing excitement.

And yes I'm an Alonso fan. I've loved him ever since he dethroned the god that was Michael Schumacher... twice. No other driver currently (or recently) in the business could do that.

[Dj_polly12]

At last years Spanish GP Ross Brawn gave the order for Barichello to let Button move through.

His words, "Reubens, if you can't keep up we're going to have to let Jenson have a go."

Team orders or an observation implying a direction?

There are so many contradicting arguments for and against here that there's no real point in it being argued.

[Hammer278]

I thought this guy was a genuine p**** ever since 2005. And since then, little things he has said and done, and in the past 2 years, big things he has done/been involved in only cements my thoughts about him. Mr2times...believes everyone should be parted like the Red sea because he is....Mr2times. Thus, automatically he has the right of way, the other 23 drivers are there just to crown his achievements and play with him on HIS tracks around the world. Another reason why I thank the racing Gods for bringing Hamilton into F1, because he made Mr2times look stupid by actually matching him in his rookie season, and he gives Mr2times a real headache whenever he does well. (As Mr2times demonstrated after Valencia)

Well, I hope there's a big shock in store for both him and Ferrari, and I hope WMSC or whatever blackflags the Ferraris from Hockenheim. Massa lost the win, but I don't think he'd give much of a damn if he loses all his points...he knows full well now he doesn't have a hope in Hell of winning the WDC after the team he nearly died for last year stabbed him in the back.

I also hope Redbull and McLaren gets their sh*t together and denies this race fixing team anymore wins from now on and dashes their hopes fully and completely after the Hungarian race. Too late to improve much for a race coming up so soon.

[EyesInTheDrk]

was it team orders in Turkey when hamilton was assured by the team that jenson wouldnt pass? there by making it ok to go into a fuel saving mode?

my fave quote of the day was christian horner calling it the most blatant infraction of team orders hes seen, as if we have forgotten the radio transmission "vettel is coming do not obstruct him" that mark "failed" to hear right before he collided with him.

so how about we cut the crap and admit that all teams use team orders. or would you rather that next time the radio transmission be " We believe you may be short on fuel switch to engine position blah blah blah"? or are any of you really naive enough to believe those guys are cheats but my guys never would do that?

[The Ram]

Massa believes he owes Ferrari. He also thinks that neither he nor Alonso can win the WDC this year. Chasing wins won't help him right now, Massa knows he will be stronger next year. All he needs is to show Ferrari his dedication. Next year he can pounce.

The differnce between him and Hamitlon is that Hamilton knew he was faster than Alonso right out of the box, there was no need for a strategic approach, no worries of future consequences, he could take Alonso anytime anywhere, no need to pounce, no need to bide any time. Just Kick aass here and kick it now. Massa is not as privileged since the season has drawn out so far so I actually think Massa did the right thing. I would have wanted the win, but no need to when I know Alonso aint winning jack at the end of the season. Best to keep the peace until next year when the body and mind is stronger.

[bud]

Alonso is pathetic. Thats the truth!

[Four mules as one]

If this goes before the World Motorsport Council will Jean Todt be the one issuing Ferrari with any further type of penalty, such as disqualification from the race? I would find that extremely interesting seeing as how he was in charge of Ferrari in Austria 2002, the race that created the 'banning team orders' rule.

On a personal note, I'm not sure if Massa was slowing down 2 laps prior to letting Alonso pass, but I think Alonso would have passed him anyway if he just had of kept on pushing as he was. Alonso looked much quicker and as soon as he caught back up to Massa, he was let past. Perhaps Felipe knew he was going to struggle and let him pass in a deliberate fashion in order to save his own reputation of outright pace. Having said that, catching is one thing and passing (particularly with todays terrible cars, or tracks - whichever you prefer to blame) is completely another thing. But I don't understand these drivers who supposedly play the team game and then go and whinge about it and look all sullen because the race was taken off them. If you don't like it then go on and win the bloody race. As Senna said, if you're no longer competing to win then you're no longer a racing driver because you're not in Formula One to come second, third or fourth. I'm more disappointed in Massa because clearly he has resigned himself to being a number two driver. Get some mongrel about you Felipe!!!

[billindenver]

If this goes before the World Motorsport Council will Jean Todt be the one issuing Ferrari with any further type of penalty, such as disqualification from the race? I would find that extremely interesting seeing as how he was in charge of Ferrari in Austria 2002, the race that created the 'banning team orders' rule.

On a personal note, I'm not sure if Massa was slowing down 2 laps prior to letting Alonso pass, but I think Alonso would have passed him anyway if he just had of kept on pushing as he was. Alonso looked much quicker and as soon as he caught back up to Massa, he was let past. Perhaps Felipe knew he was going to struggle and let him pass in a deliberate fashion in order to save his own reputation of outright pace. Having said that, catching is one thing and passing (particularly with todays terrible cars, or tracks - whichever you prefer to blame) is completely another thing. But I don't understand these drivers who supposedly play the team game and then go and whinge about it and look all sullen because the race was taken off them. If you don't like it then go on and win the bloody race. As Senna said, if you're no longer competing to win then you're no longer a racing driver because you're not in Formula One to come second, third or fourth. I'm more disappointed in Massa because clearly he has resigned himself to being a number two driver. Get some mongrel about you Felipe!!!

If he had the pace, he would be a number one driver. But he never has had it, no matter who his team mate has been...and at this point, I can't see that he ever will. He is a solid, dependable driver who puts in pretty decent drives with the occasional better than F1 average drives. He and Barrichello...birds of a feather. I like them both and get very excited when they do well...but they are not equal to the Alonso's etc in the pit lane. You don't build a championship team around either of them....it's just fact. The radio calls to Massa for 15 minutes prior to the pass were for him to get a gap and keep it. The team was clearly trying to get him to pick up his pace so that Vettel didn't climb onto Alonso's rear wing...but Massa simply didn't have the pace. He seldom does. I feel for the guy, and wish he could legitimately hold his team mate off...but he can't. He needs to find some pace.

[Diplomatic Immunity]

The truth is that this Thread is retarded, and TS is just another hater.
What happened today was Ferrari's decision, not Alonso's, so put the blame on the team leader. I guess everyone forgot about Schumi's era in the scuderia...

I wouldn't be working my a$$ off on Alonso's championship winning Renault if I Was a hater...












Also, as I noted in another thread Ferrari is just as much to blame. I don't know Reubens put up with that bull for all of those years.

[Diplomatic Immunity]

If he had the pace, he would be a number one driver. But he never has had it, no matter who his team mate has been...and at this point, I can't see that he ever will. He is a solid, dependable driver who puts in pretty decent drives with the occasional better than F1 average drives. He and Barrichello...birds of a feather. I like them both and get very excited when they do well...but they are not equal to the Alonso's etc in the pit lane. You don't build a championship team around either of them....it's just fact. The radio calls to Massa for 15 minutes prior to the pass were for him to get a gap and keep it. The team was clearly trying to get him to pick up his pace so that Vettel didn't climb onto Alonso's rear wing...but Massa simply didn't have the pace. He seldom does. I feel for the guy, and wish he could legitimately hold his team mate off...but he can't. He needs to find some pace.

Nicely put! but I am almost certain Vettel would not have caught Fernando