FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[darwin dali]

the naked ape.

Grow some chest hair

[7UpJordan]

the naked ape.

Grow some chest hair

Got enough of that as it is.

[al4x]

im glad i havent got much chest hair!

[Amanda]

It gets quite chilly up here too.

I'm a bit more conservative than your average young lady (at least the way they dress nowadays), I have no idea why, I just always have been

But giving people the freedom to dress (or undress) how they want, where they want, would give people equal freedom to be clothed or unclothed. So a personal preference for being clothed should not, in my opinion, lead to a personal preference for nudity being illegal or otherwise legally discouraged.

Of course it shouldn't. But a preference, expressed by the majority in a culture, should have an impact on the law. The majority of people in most western cultures find nudity indecent and therefore it is indecent. As to why? Well I think that you answered your own question;

"Are there actually good reasons why we can show off our hands and noses, but not our vaginas in public? "

What's the difference between our hands and noses and a woman's vagina? One is obviously associated with sexuality and the other two are not.

[darwin dali]

It gets quite chilly up here too.

I'm a bit more conservative than your average young lady (at least the way they dress nowadays), I have no idea why, I just always have been

But giving people the freedom to dress (or undress) how they want, where they want, would give people equal freedom to be clothed or unclothed. So a personal preference for being clothed should not, in my opinion, lead to a personal preference for nudity being illegal or otherwise legally discouraged.

Of course it shouldn't. But a preference, expressed by the majority in a culture, should have an impact on the law. The majority of people in most western cultures find nudity indecent and therefore it is indecent. As to why? Well I think that you answered your own question;

"Are there actually good reasons why we can show off our hands and noses, but not our vaginas in public? "

What's the difference between our hands and noses and a woman's vagina? One is obviously associated with sexuality and the other two are not.

I can think of multiple ways a hand or nose can be associated with sexuality
Hence the beekeeper suits!

[Amanda]

It gets quite chilly up here too.

I'm a bit more conservative than your average young lady (at least the way they dress nowadays), I have no idea why, I just always have been

But giving people the freedom to dress (or undress) how they want, where they want, would give people equal freedom to be clothed or unclothed. So a personal preference for being clothed should not, in my opinion, lead to a personal preference for nudity being illegal or otherwise legally discouraged.

Of course it shouldn't. But a preference, expressed by the majority in a culture, should have an impact on the law. The majority of people in most western cultures find nudity indecent and therefore it is indecent. As to why? Well I think that you answered your own question;

"Are there actually good reasons why we can show off our hands and noses, but not our vaginas in public? "

What's the difference between our hands and noses and a woman's vagina? One is obviously associated with sexuality and the other two are not.

I can think of multiple ways a hand or nose can be associated with sexuality
Hence the beekeeper suits!

You would

The Burqa is further proof really. Our culture just has boundaries that are a little more lax and realistic.

[Gaz]

I find it amusing some people find the Burqa offensive.

I don't like religion really but i don't really see anything wrong with it.

[Amanda]

I find it amusing some people find the Burqa offensive.

I don't like religion really but i don't really see anything wrong with it.

If it's a woman's choice to wear it then I agree. However, a lot of the time it isn't the woman's choice.

EDIT: I should also point out that I find the disparity between the way men and women are expected to dress, in certain cultures, very offensive.

[FerrariFan63]

So what your really asking is, why is nudity illegal - which the answer is some people find it offensive.

There are lots of things that people find offensive, but are not illegal. So, that's not a sufficient explanation.

And even if it was a sufficient explanation, there would still be the question of why some people find it offensive, and whether or not there is any real justification for them to be more offended by a duck than a hand.

I would say that the real reason some people find nudity offensive or indecent is that they have been taught that it is. And that if it were legalised tomorrow, after a short while everyone would wonder what the fuss was about. Fundamentally, finding nudity offensive or indecent is a tradition with, in my opinion, no logical basis.

If we look at the case of the burqua/hijab, some people in our culture believe that requiring women to wear such all-encompassing garments is wrong, and unreasonable. But, we have similar traditions requiring women to cover their breasts, vaginas, and buttocks. From a logical point of view, I can see no difference between the two traditions from a logical point of view, just that we see our laws/traditions as reasonable as they are based upon our irrational cultural conventions, while laws/traditions of other cultures are seen as unreasonable as they not consistent with our irrational cultural conventions.

[FerrariFan63]

If it's a woman's choice to wear it then I agree. However, a lot of the time it isn't the woman's choice.

And in our culture, it isn't the woman's choice to cover her <list of same "naughty" bits as before>.

EDIT: I should also point out that I find the disparity between the way men and women are expected to dress, in certain cultures, very offensive.

In our culture, men have more freedom to display their chests in public than women do. Despite the fact that in our overfed western world, quite a lot of men have breasts as large or larger than many women.

So, I'd say that the only difference between our rules/laws/traditions and those of fundamentalist muslim countries is a matter of degree.

[Amanda]

So what your really asking is, why is nudity illegal - which the answer is some people find it offensive.

There are lots of things that people find offensive, but are not illegal. So, that's not a sufficient explanation.

And even if it was a sufficient explanation, there would still be the question of why some people find it offensive, and whether or not there is any real justification for them to be more offended by a duck than a hand.

I would say that the real reason some people find nudity offensive or indecent is that they have been taught that it is. And that if it were legalised tomorrow, after a short while everyone would wonder what the fuss was about. Fundamentally, finding nudity offensive or indecent is a tradition with, in my opinion, no logical basis.

If we look at the case of the burqua/hijab, some people in our culture believe that requiring women to wear such all-encompassing garments is wrong, and unreasonable. But, we have similar traditions requiring women to cover their breasts, vaginas, and buttocks. From a logical point of view, I can see no difference between the two traditions from a logical point of view, just that we see our laws/traditions as reasonable as they are based upon our irrational cultural conventions, while laws/traditions of other cultures are seen as unreasonable as they not consistent with our irrational cultural conventions.

I think the distaste many people have for the Burqa is far more complex than you're allowing for here. In our society both women and men are required to cover body parts associated with sexuality. The Burqa is limited to women and, in large part, is the result of sexism and a way of subjugating women.

[Gaz]

I find it amusing some people find the Burqa offensive.

I don't like religion really but i don't really see anything wrong with it.

If it's a woman's choice to wear it then I agree. However, a lot of the time it isn't the woman's choice.

EDIT: I should also point out that I find the disparity between the way men and women are expected to dress, in certain cultures, very offensive.

Yeah some cultures are pretty backward.

But if the women is under no pressure and chooses to wear it then i've no problem with it.

[Amanda]

If it's a woman's choice to wear it then I agree. However, a lot of the time it isn't the woman's choice.

And in our culture, it isn't the woman's choice to cover her <list of same "naughty" bits as before>.

I see nothing wrong with people covering up their bodies if it's their choice, that doesn't offend anybody. Exposing your body obviously does offend people and therefore the situations are different.

EDIT: I should also point out that I find the disparity between the way men and women are expected to dress, in certain cultures, very offensive.

In our culture, men have more freedom to display their chests in public than women do. Despite the fact that in our overfed western world, quite a lot of men have breasts as large or larger than many women.

So, I'd say that the only difference between our rules/laws/traditions and those of fundamentalist muslim countries is a matter of degree.

You can't honestly believe that a man's breasts share the same connotation with umpalumpa that a woman's do Size really isn't the issue here, a woman with an A cup or a woman with a FF cup are expected to cover up in exactly the same way.

I'd say the difference is not only the degree but also inequality.

[FerrariFan63]

I think the distaste many people have for the Burqa is far more complex than you're allowing for here. In our society both women and men are required to cover body parts associated with sexuality. The Burqa is limited to women and, in large part, is the result of sexism and a way of subjugating women.

It is more complex than I'm allowing for here, because I am discussing one particular question. That is nudity. If we were to discuss the moral implications of burqa, then we'd need to discuss a large number of points, and the degree to which clothing rules, regulations, and traditions interfere with women's opportunities to lead a free and fulfilling life would become crucial, not incidental.

There is a much less oppressive set of rules and regulations for male clothing in the conservative muslim world, but it's generally accepted that men must cover themselves from the navel to the knees. This covers regions, particularly the thighs, which are not directly associated with sexuality, i.e. not the sexual organs themselves.

By the way, women's breasts do not play a direct role in umpalumpa, any more than men's breasts do. Although both are frequently given much "attention" during umpalumpa. Yet women's breasts are still required to be covered while men's breasts are not.

For reasons that should be easy to understand, I ask people to note that I'm discussing these things in the context of a discussion of whether or not nudity itself should be poscribed or not. In different contexts, my arguments would look quite different.

[al4x]

moobs.. just wrong, thats all im going to say

oh, except..........

i could never be in favour of public nufdity,,, have you seen nudist beaches?!