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[texasmr2]

War suck's, one is all we need to be !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa_8bXIUKI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[darwin dali]

Two Tribes

[bud]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

Look at the maps Bud!!! Its their country!

this goes futher back than just 1946. Israel sees this as retaking their country!

i mean s*** do the native Americans or native Australians fire missiles at the usurpers? same thing!

[McLaren Fan]

Whose land it is is not the issue at the moment. racechick is being naive to think it is. What we have going on is some petty point-scoring and propaganda battle, mainly instigated by Hamas. You can say Israel are being cruel or whatever, but Hamas are nothing but twisted bar stewards, having their own people slaughtered for some emotional P.R.

[racechick]

Whose land it is is not the issue at the moment. racechick is being naive to think it is. What we have going on is some petty point-scoring and propaganda battle, mainly instigated by Hamas. You can say Israel are being cruel or whatever, but Hamas are nothing but twisted bar stewards, having their own people slaughtered for some emotional P.R.

Ive read about this conflict in depth and am not being naive thank you very much . Ive been at the UN in Austria for two years where the relief and works agencies are based supplying the camps, so dont call me naive!
There may well be a propaganda war going on but the fact remains that 13 Israeli's are dead and over 1000 Palestinians. That is fact. And they were not killed by Hamas they were killed by Israelis. You have no idea what its like out there!

[McLaren Fan]

You don't know anything about me or my life, so have no right to claim I don't know what's going on in the Middle East. All you do is criticise Israel, whilst overlooking anything that may mitigate their actions, and then carefully chose information that makes the Palestinians look the only wronged party and completely innocent. What has happened and is happening in the Middle East stinks to high heaven and neither Israel nor Palestine looks good. I wonder how many more thousands of people will have to die before these morons agree to make compromises and find a solution.

[darwin dali]

I don't care either way - as for me the two tribes could kill each other so nobody is left. Then we could give the land to the Armenians or Kurds or whoever has been fighting for having their own country

[Dutchcruijff]

Israel exists and the best thing would be if both sides agreed to a 2 state solution based on pre-1967 borders. However I don't honestly know if either Israel or Hamas want that, but the best thing they can do is talk to each other to find a solution.

Regarding your point about Hamas btw, they were the elected government of the palestinian people, and altho they've had their power taken away by Fatah in the West Bank they are still the legitimate government of the Gaza Strip.


Regarding the daily rocket attacks, there are over 1.3 million people living in the Gaza Strip It's one of the most densely populated strip of land in the world. It is also like a cage, their is constant Israeli air patrols and Palestinians have no air control at all, they're sealed in from the sea by submarines and warships, and there are countless checkpoints on the road which take days to get through if you're a Palestinian. More than 30% of the population live in UN funded refugee camps and that will increase hugely after this war. They have little or no electricity, they rely on pumps controlled by Israelis for the water which is constantly switched off.


Hamas firing rockets in return is all they can do under the circumstances, nobody wants to talk to them. And for them it's a symbol, as symbol of their struggle. It's also something of hope cos it annoys Israel because it reminds them that the Palestinians are still there, they're not going anywhere. If Palestinians did nothing then Israel would continue with the status quo with the Palestinians living like animals in a confined space. AND by the way IF the world actually fulfilled just 4 of the 60+ United Nations resolutions passed against Israel in favour of the Palestinians over the last 40 years then the likes of Hamas wouldn't need to take these actions. In any society, anarchy prevails when the law is set aside, Israel illegally occupies their land under international law stated by the U.N. and lets face it the world couldn't give a s*** so why should the Palestinians give a 5hit what you and I or the world thinks sitting in our comfortable homes with our holier than thou attitude? It's not like the world is gonna do anything about it is it?

[Dutchcruijff]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

Look at the maps Bud!!! Its their country!

this goes futher back than just 1946. Israel sees this as retaking their country!

i mean s*** do the native Americans or native Australians fire missiles at the usurpers? same thing!

Originally Israel was never a state,/country it was an area inhabited by Jews which consisted of two very small cities/towns (as they were at the time) before the Roman empire. (Research) So you can hardly say that the Israelis have a right to claim the area because it was "originally" theirs.

Of course it wasn't originally an islamic state either but I don't think that's the point. It's been occupied by Muslim, Christian, Jewish Arabs/Palestinians for over 1000 years. The United Kingdom, the monarchy, what we regard as Britain today and it's relevant history is just over 1000 years old. What if the Romans suddenly arrived, said sorry mate we were here first, your 1000 years of history and residency here is irrelevant we want to set up our own state. How do you think the current UK population would react to that.

Better still, what if a bunch of Muslims turned up and say according to their religion, their Koran says that the UK was their promised land. Then they extricate the majority of the current population out of the country, and place the minority who remain into Wales and half of London to live in - under ghetto style accomodation. Then they start bringing in 100's of thousands of Muslims into the UK to fill the towns and cities in their place declaring it a Muslims state for all Muslims worldwide to come and live.

[Gaz]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

Look at the maps Bud!!! Its their country!

this goes futher back than just 1946. Israel sees this as retaking their country!

i mean s*** do the native Americans or native Australians fire missiles at the usurpers? same thing!

Originally Israel was never a state,/country it was an area inhabited by Jews which consisted of two very small cities/towns (as they were at the time) before the Roman empire. (Research) So you can hardly say that the Israelis have a right to claim the area because it was "originally" theirs.

Of course it wasn't originally an islamic state either but I don't think that's the point. It's been occupied by Muslim, Christian, Jewish Arabs/Palestinians for over 1000 years. The United Kingdom, the monarchy, what we regard as Britain today and it's relevant history is just over 1000 years old. What if the Romans suddenly arrived, said sorry mate we were here first, your 1000 years of history and residency here is irrelevant we want to set up our own state. How do you think the current UK population would react to that.

Better still, what if a bunch of Muslims turned up and say according to their religion, their Koran says that the UK was their promised land. Then they extricate the majority of the current population out of the country, and place the minority who remain into Wales and half of London to live in - under ghetto style accomodation. Then they start bringing in 100's of thousands of Muslims into the UK to fill the towns and cities in their place declaring it a Muslims state for all Muslims worldwide to come and live.

Bit of a silly argument the Romans invaded the UK which inhabitaed by Britons (celts).

Romans left then came the Angalo saxons and the celts were pushed out of england to Wales and Cornwall then came the Vikings who were outed by the Normans.

They all left, and the UK poplation is made up of the orginal (britons) celts romans, angalo-saxons, vikings and Norman invaders.

Well perhaps not so much scotland since they weren't invaded much if i'm correct.

Anyway..

What it is the Allies after the 2nd world war felt there should be a jewish nation after the attrocites the jews suffered at the hand of nazi Germany.

they made a mess of it by pissing off all the muslims in the area.

thing is tho a Jew is just a person who is a attached to a religion and from ancestral heritage. So really its just religion.

And like all stupid relgions it causes conflict just like in Northern ireland.

but Israel is way to powerful and the only thing really stopping them clearing out Gaza and taking the whole of the region is the UN that and they don't want to get invloved in a bloody gorilla war.

It will proberly continue for a few more decades until the Palestinian people are accepted by the Jewish people and vica versa.

In the mean time the UN can sit down and do f*** all as usual and each side can blow the crap out of each other.

I can see both sides of the story and neither is the right action, the sooner each side realises were all humans break down the barriers that religion and other social & Political division's can cause the better.

Don't get me wrong i understand the need for Religion in some peoples lives, and i don't want to get rid of counties because diffrent culures and people are great! But everyone just needs to learn to accept each other more.

[Dutchcruijff]

Okay, the Roman example may have been a bit of an exaggeration.

[bud]

I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Israilis! Though it seems Hamas is coming out of this with the sympathy vote from some corners of the world even though they instigated this current chapter of the war

Look at the maps Bud!!! Its their country!

this goes futher back than just 1946. Israel sees this as retaking their country!

i mean s*** do the native Americans or native Australians fire missiles at the usurpers? same thing!

Originally Israel was never a state,/country it was an area inhabited by Jews which consisted of two very small cities/towns (as they were at the time) before the Roman empire. (Research) So you can hardly say that the Israelis have a right to claim the area because it was "originally" theirs.

Of course it wasn't originally an islamic state either but I don't think that's the point. It's been occupied by Muslim, Christian, Jewish Arabs/Palestinians for over 1000 years. The United Kingdom, the monarchy, what we regard as Britain today and it's relevant history is just over 1000 years old. What if the Romans suddenly arrived, said sorry mate we were here first, your 1000 years of history and residency here is irrelevant we want to set up our own state. How do you think the current UK population would react to that.

Better still, what if a bunch of Muslims turned up and say according to their religion, their Koran says that the UK was their promised land. Then they extricate the majority of the current population out of the country, and place the minority who remain into Wales and half of London to live in - under ghetto style accomodation. Then they start bringing in 100's of thousands of Muslims into the UK to fill the towns and cities in their place declaring it a Muslims state for all Muslims worldwide to come and live.

originally wasnt a state? im pretty sure that back then there were no such thing as states as such but you hit the nail on the head, they inhabited, key word. So in their eyes

and you obviously missed my comment about the native Aussies and Americans fighting to take back their land?
history is full of invaders but land ownership is a funny thing, one could say humans only real claim lays in Africa where we evolved.

Unfortunately Land is not the only reasoning behind this conflict

[Dutchcruijff]

So in their eyes...?

[McLaren Fan]

And like all stupid relgions it causes conflict just like in Northern ireland.

Well, the conflict in Northern Ireland hasn't really got much to do with religion. Really, it is just that the majority of nationalists are Roman Catholic and that unionists are mainly Protestant. These religious terms are now false, however. They are used to describe people from one side or other of divide regardless of whether they practise Christianity or not. It is true that Catholics and non-Anglicans suffered some brutal treatment throughout the ages from England and that politics and religion got mixed somewhere, largely as a result of the religious conflicts that abounded in Europe anyway over the Mediaeval and Early Modern periods. The truest cause of the conflict in Ireland over the past eight hundred years is political; i.e. whether or not Ireland should be free from any kind of rule by Britain. Like the Middle East, however, the whole situation in Ireland has been distorted over the centuries. To give only a couple of summarised examples: first, something worth pointing out that it was a Gaelic king who invited the Cambro/Anglo-Normans into Ireland in the first instance. So, it is not just a simple case of those evil Brits who invaded Ireland and held down the natives. Fast forward several hundred years and many of those in Ireland who came from Scotland etc. regarded Ireland as their homeland and saw themselves as Irish. Those who claimed to be descended from pre-Norman Ireland and those who were Irish as a result of invasions and plantations formed the Society of United Irishmen. Before the French Revolution broke out and some Machiavellian political dealings within the United Irishmen, it was a group made up of Catholics and Protestants who were not of the Anglican faith seeking more religious freedom and political reform. So, again, it is not the case that all Protestants were united and seeking to hold down Catholics. If people actually read up in some of the history of the British Isles they would find many of their prejudices completely debunked. All of their clear, petty and simplistic notions of what happened would suddenly become very muddied. What has happened in Ireland over the years, though, has been one ill-informed person passing down their prejudices to their children for generations. It's incredibly sad to see young children hate people for no other reason than that it has been bred into them. With common sense and a bit of luck, hopefully these prejudices were eventually disappear, but it's going to take a long time.

The situation in the Middle East is quite different from Ireland, but there are some similarities. As with the United Irishmen, simple politics and religious matters were not the only motivation of some people. A lot of what has gone on in the Middle East has propagated as being about religion and a land dispute, but is really is about misplaced macho notions of pride and muscle-flexing and self-interest, which is almost entirely to the detriment to those from below, those who are just trying to make a life for themselves in this uncertain world.

[racechick]

You don't know anything about me or my life, so have no right to claim I don't know what's going on in the Middle East. All you do is criticise Israel, whilst overlooking anything that may mitigate their actions, and then carefully chose information that makes the Palestinians look the only wronged party and completely innocent. What has happened and is happening in the Middle East stinks to high heaven and neither Israel nor Palestine looks good. I wonder how many more thousands of people will have to die before these morons agree to make compromises and find a solution.

You know nothing about my life either so dont call me naive. When I said "you have no idea whats going on out there" I didnt mean you personally I meant the general public that just read about it in the paper or see the television. Read Dutchcruiff's comments he clearly is aware.