FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[bud]

dang cletus, i posted this already in the pits section

[scotty]

dang cletus, i posted this already in the pits section

Oops, should've checked there really, a mod can delete this if they want

[bud]

dang cletus, i posted this already in the pits section

Oops, should've checked there really, a mod can delete this if they want

either or

[scotty]

Well, it's like i mentioned in that other thread, if these accidents keep occuring then they will surely delay it's introduction...

Stupid Greenpeace types

[texasmr2]

DAYM that is crazy and very scary!

[bud]

Well, it's like i mentioned in that other thread, if these accidents keep occuring then they will surely delay it's introduction...

Stupid Greenpeace types

it is something to look at, one thing to look at is track marshals recovering a damaged car. what if the Kers is faulty and causes the car to be "live" and prevents them from recovering an injured driver.

i think that is an extreme but i guess KERS is an unknown....

[scotty]

Well, it's like i mentioned in that other thread, if these accidents keep occuring then they will surely delay it's introduction...

Stupid Greenpeace types

it is something to look at, one thing to look at is track marshals recovering a damaged car. what if the Kers is faulty and causes the car to be "live" and prevents them from recovering an injured driver.

i think that is an extreme but i guess KERS is an unknown....

Hmm, yeah i didn't consider that... and there always seem to be unforseen consequences with these things.

Or what if an electric charge causes an explosion during a pit stop? I dunno, something just doesn't seem right at the moment, this is a completely different beast to the electronics that are currently in F1 cars, i just hope they completely sort every possible issue out before it's introduction.

[bud]

times

Vettel Toro Rosso 94 1:19.844 124.056 mph
Paffett McLaren 80 1:20.179 0.335
Badoer Ferrari 69 1:20.697 0.853
Hulkenberg WilliamsF1 58 1:20.953 1.109
Buemi Red Bull 110 1:20.997 1.153
Grosjean Renault 71 1:21.223 1.379
Trulli Toyota 96 1:21.459 1.615
Wurz Honda 84 1:21.596 1.752

[McLaren Fan]

From autosport.com:

Toyota doubt KERS will be ready in time

By Simon Strang and Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, July 23rd 2008, 11:55 GMT

John HowettToyota team president John Howett is unsure Formula One teams will be able to have the Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS) ready for use in time for the start of next season.

The system, which stores energy to be used in the form of a 'boost' button, will be allowed in the sport from 2009, and some teams have already started running with it.

KERS, however, has already caused two known scares, first when it triggered an incident with steam and fumes at the Red Bull factory, and again yesterday, when a BMW Sauber mechanic was injured after receiving an electric shock when touching the team's test car.

And Howett reckons most teams are struggling with the development of the system, which he believes could not be ready in time for the start of 2009.

"The challenges are enormous for everybody," Howett told autosport.com in Germany. "We're all fighting very hard to have a raceable, safe KERS, but whether it is achievable or not has to be seen.

"I think if you read between the lines of a lot of teams I think a lot of people are struggling."

Howett believes most of the problems with the system can be solved, but he is unsure if they can be overcome to a satisfactory safety level.

"Everybody knows that the type of batteries that we're using, and the voltages involved, and the training that you have to go through, for instance, releasing a road car so that when the fire brigade arrives at an accident they know what to do, is very hard," Howett added.

"So I think a lot of these issues can be overcome. Whether they can be overcome to a satisfactory, safe level before the first race, I can't hand-on-heart tell you.

"We're working flat-out to try and do that, or to find alternatives to batteries, but I doubt whether that will be feasible for next year."

Honda team principal Ross Brawn, whose team are believed to be the first ones to have run with KERS, admitted the Japanese squad are unsure if they will start the season with the system.

"I don't know for certain," he said. "We will if it's a performance gain, and we haven't done enough work yet to know if it's a performance gain. We are scheduling to start the season with it, but we will see how it develops.

"It's rather too early to say, but the new car is designed to accommodate it and the day that it becomes a positive, net performance gain we will start to race it."

Brawn also reckons the performance advantage of KERS is currently very small.

"KERS has a performance gain but the downside is accommodating and packaging all the various elements," he added. "I think the performance gain at the moment is possibly marginal, but then we haven't necessarily explored all the potential of KERS, how it can be used.

"None of us have got systems running regularly on the track to learn how they can behave. The other thing that is clear is that the FIA have indicated that they want to increase the value of KERS and of course that for sure will increase the margins."

[bud]

Wednesday times

1 VET 1:18.843 100
2 DEL 1:19.061 122
3 RAI 1:19.446 76
4 ROS 1:19.861 112
5 WEB 1:20.021 105
6 WUR 1:20.416 77
7 TRU 1:20.534 81
8 LIU 1:20.577 102
9 PIQ 1:20.827 99
10 KLI 1:20.850 89

[scotty]

Some of the teams have been running '09 spec cars right? Cause it's good to see that the speeds haven't lowered much, meaning the mechanical grip must be working well.

[Rivelution]

McLarens now tries the nose wings.

McLaren are considering introducing a radical-looking update to their car for the Hungarian Grand Prix after trying out their version of nose horn wings in testing at Jerez on Thursday.

The team are undertaking a big development push of their MP4-23 to maintain the edge they currently appear to have over rivals Ferrari.

And after evaluating a shark fin engine cover in Hockenheim testing, the team surprised observers on the third day of this week's test at Jerez in Spain by unveiling bold-looking nose wings fitted to their car .

The sculpted wings, which rise out of the top sides of the nose on the car, are based on a concept used by BMW Sauber and Honda Racing.

McLaren's F1 CEO Martin Whitmarsh confirmed that the team are thinking about racing with the wings soon - and possibly as early as the Hungarian Grand Prix.

"We've been evaluating a number of different aerodynamic solutions during recent tests, running a dorsal (shark) fin in Hockenheim and trying these refined antler wings at Jerez this week," he told autosport.com.

"At the moment, we are undertaking a very heavy development schedule ahead of the traditional summer break and, while we have yet to confirm plans to run the antler wings in Hungary, they remain an option for both Budapest and the races later this summer."

Here's a link that shows a good picture of the nose wings.
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/7/8148.html

[McLaren Fan]

From ITV.com:

Of the radical new technical regulations being implemented in Formula 1 from 2009, the one that is undoubtedly the most challenging for teams is the development of Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems (KERS).

The energy-saving devices have hit the headlines for unwelcome reasons over the past week, raising serious questions about both safety and whether the systems will be ready for next season.

So with this in mind, we asked our expert analyst Mark Hughes to demystify the whole KERS concept itself; while explaining both the challenges posed and possible effects created by their introduction.


The Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) dominates technical talk in the F1 paddock right now.

Next year’s new regulations allow these devices to be used for the first time. They store energy otherwise lost during braking and convert it into power.

Legislating the devices into the rules is one thing; getting them working effectively and safely is something else. Teams have only just begun testing them and already we have seen two battery fires and a mechanic receiving an electric shock.


How KERS will work

There are expected to be two types of KERS systems in use next year: battery and flywheel.

The battery system seems set to be the more popular method. It harnesses the braking energy by storing it in super-capacitor batteries which then release power to the driven wheels when required.

The flywheel method looks set to be used by Williams (and possibly Honda and/or Toyota). Here the braking energy is used to turn a flywheel and when extra power is needed the wheels are coupled up to the spinning flywheel to give a boost in power.

Initially, the regulations limit the power of the KERS systems to 60kw (around 80 horsepower) and the storage capacity of the energy is 400kJ (kilojoules) per lap. What in effect this means is an extra 80 horsepower available for 6.7s per lap.

The idea is not only to force F1 to develop green technology but also to help overtaking. A chasing driver could deploy his KERS device as he is catching the car ahead to give him an acceleration boost.

Of course the driver being chased can use his KERS device defensively at the same time, thus negating the chasing driver’s power advantage.

But the limited storage of extra energy means that drivers will have to be very tactical in how they deploy the device.

Because it takes time to restore the energy after you’ve used it, it could be that you have used up your supply and the guy behind still has some left as you arrive at the critical point of the track.

In principle it brings an interesting new dimension to F1. But there are a lot of difficulties to overcome first – and it is by no means certain that teams will have their devices ready in time for the beginning of next season.

The use of KERS will not be compulsory, and so several teams are expecting to at least start 2009 without it.

The challenges

Although battery-type KERS devices are used on hybrid road cars such as the Toyota Prius, the technology required for an F1 application will be rather different.

The batteries in a road-going hybrid are expected to last for pretty much the life of the vehicle.

Because this is F1 the batteries here will need to be as small and light as possible for the given level of power, and as such they will be ‘on the edge’ technologically and will probably last only for one race weekend – if that long!

BMW’s Mario Theissen has pointed out that the power-to-weight ratio of the F1 device is three to four times that used in the company’s hybrid road cars.

The safety concerns surround electrical fires with the batteries and the risk of electrocution.

When the cars come into the pit garages still carrying their stored electrical energy, the teams will need equipment that releases this energy from the car into a storage device. Only then will the car be safe to work on.

The implication is that marshal posts will need access to similar equipment in the event of a stranded car on-track.

The matter of exploding batteries is a potential hazard not only for the driver and crew but also for those anywhere near because of the chemicals used in the lithium batteries.

Teams believe they can install the batteries and/or flywheels in such a way that there is no risk of them coming adrift in the event of an accident, but that is something that will need to be incorporated into the standard FIA crash-testing of each design before it is allowed onto the track.


The effects

As yet, the performance gains are not expected to overwhelming.

The use of an extra 80bhp for just under 7s would nominally gain around 0.3s of lap time, but against that gain needs to be subtracted the effect of the less optimal placing of weight.

The devices, with batteries and associated equipment, will weigh around 35kg.

Teams currently use around 60-70kg of ballast, which they place wherever best suits the dynamics of the car on a given track. But wherever they place it, it is always very low down in order to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible.

With KERS devices using up around half the current ballast, the centre of gravity height will increase and there will be less flexibility in where the weight is situated within the wheelbase.

There are potential issues also with torque effects on the rear axle as the device becomes saturated and cannot accept any more braking energy. The step change on the axle load could make the car unstable under braking.

The current plan is that the power and storage capacity of the devices will be progressively increased over coming seasons, with a jump to 100kw and 800kJ of storage in 2011 and then 200kw and 1,600kJ in 2013 taken from both axles rather than just the rear axle, as configured until then.

But as can be appreciated, there’s an awful lot of work to do yet just getting the first generation of devices safely up and running.

[texasmr2]

I understand DC's concern's but I have a question, is KERS a mandatory or voluntary device for '09?

[cjlhayes]

Nope its not actually mandatory. And Ross Brawn and others have said they will only implement when there is a net performance gain. It has been suggested that there could even be a weight gain from not running it.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69408