FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[darwin dali]

What irks me is not that McLaren is not equal enough per se. What really pisses me off is that they CLAIM they are when they're not and yell down from that high horse and poopoo other teams who don't have that philosophy. I'm perfectly okay if a team openly declares they have a number one and a number two driver because it is a TEAM sport as well.

[McLaren Fan]

What irks me is not that McLaren is not equal enough per se.

You keep telling yourself, despite what I and others have said before.

What really pisses me off is that they CLAIM they are when they're not and yell down from that high horse and poopoo other teams who don't have that philosophy.

Wrong. McLaren have their way and believe that's the fairest way. They may disagree with other methods but have never taken a holier than thou attitude about it.

All we have here is ungrounded and unadulterated hatred for McLaren.

[Dutchcruijff]

In my opinion Mclaren are a fair team might have a few little issues but for sure they show no favouritism to any single drivers. I.e Hamilton & Alonso this season

[darwin dali]

They sure have their way, but fairest? What's fair about this (see below)?


The Swiss, who still owns a small stake of the outfit known as BMW Sauber, said he did not believe McLaren chiefs who insist that the 'cool fuel' saga was not a veiled and desperate last effort to steal the crown from Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen.

"This season deserved a better finish," Sauber wrote in the Swiss newspaper Blick.

He pointed out that Martin Whitmarsh and Norbert Haug have been at pains recently to point out that the London hearing was simply about clarifying the rules.

But Sauber, referring to the argument barrister Ian Mill took to the court, said: "Apparently their lawyer thought something else."

"His strategy was clearly to establish the disqualification of Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld," Sauber added.

Sam Michael, Technical Director for Williams - the other team accused by McLaren of illegally chilling fuel in Brazil last month - said after the hearing that "the proper place" to seek a clarification about the rules is the Technical Working Group, not a court.

Ferrari test driver Marc Gene took an even stronger line, arguing that McLaren's failure to admit to wanting the title on appeal was akin to "lying."

"Now, it appears as though they wanted nothing more and nothing less," the Spaniard told the news agency EFE.

[McLaren Fan]

They sure have their way, but fairest? What's fair about this (see below)?


The Swiss, who still owns a small stake of the outfit known as BMW Sauber, said he did not believe McLaren chiefs who insist that the 'cool fuel' saga was not a veiled and desperate last effort to steal the crown from Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen.

"This season deserved a better finish," Sauber wrote in the Swiss newspaper Blick.

He pointed out that Martin Whitmarsh and Norbert Haug have been at pains recently to point out that the London hearing was simply about clarifying the rules.

But Sauber, referring to the argument barrister Ian Mill took to the court, said: "Apparently their lawyer thought something else."

"His strategy was clearly to establish the disqualification of Rosberg, Kubica and Heidfeld," Sauber added.

Sam Michael, Technical Director for Williams - the other team accused by McLaren of illegally chilling fuel in Brazil last month - said after the hearing that "the proper place" to seek a clarification about the rules is the Technical Working Group, not a court.

Ferrari test driver Marc Gene took an even stronger line, arguing that McLaren's failure to admit to wanting the title on appeal was akin to "lying."

"Now, it appears as though they wanted nothing more and nothing less," the Spaniard told the news agency EFE.

What has this got to do with the way in which McLaren operate a policy of not favouring one driver over the other?

DD, you are a disgrace and clearly your arguments to undermine McLaren's policy of driver equality have themselves been totally undermined and all you can do is stray off the topic, producing an article from BMW, Williams and Ferrari, with no say from McLaren, on issue in which the first three teams stood to lose out.

[texasmr2]

DD, you are a disgrace and clearly your arguments to undermine McLaren's policy of driver equality have themselves been totally undermined and all you can do is stray off the topic, producing an article from BMW, Williams and Ferrari, with no say from McLaren, on issue in which the first three teams stood to lose out.

RD good to have you back, NOT .

[McLaren Fan]

DD, you are a disgrace and clearly your arguments to undermine McLaren's policy of driver equality have themselves been totally undermined and all you can do is stray off the topic, producing an article from BMW, Williams and Ferrari, with no say from McLaren, on issue in which the first three teams stood to lose out.

RD good to have you back, NOT .

You were wrong about Todt yesterday and DD has posted something irrelevant to this topic, knowing he has been defeated and is looking to wind up people. I am putting across the truth of the matter, something some people cannot accept. Ron Dennis may have overstepped the mark in some of his last posts on here, but often he was correct a lot of the time and was banned partly for that. This forum is becoming slightly tiresome. One cannot have a proper debate, things go round in circles and, should you lose your temper, you run the risk of being banned.

[darwin dali]

As I said, I don't care about driver equality - it's illusory anyway - it's a non-issue for me. What I take issue with is this your broad accusation:

To finish off, this issue again exposes what hypocrites there are around. People say McLaren lost the championship because of their policy of driver equality and they should change it and, on the other hand, they say McLaren are not equal enough! Make your minds up!

And I responded to it.
I'm saying they screwed up, again, in many ways. RD lost the plot - he needs to go and with him his failed policy and unfair/disingenuous way of doing things.

Here's a voice that has no dog in the hunt:


"He was is a no-win situation," stated Eddie Jordan, speaking of the McLaren boss. "Even if he did win the appeal, I think a lot of people would have disputed it. Therefore, from that point of view, from the media, everything else..."

"No, it wouldn't have been something I'd have done," concluded Jordan.

[deMuRe]

DC moving over to give Mika his first win?

Hakkinen was close to winning one race in 1996 and several in 1997. To recognise this and his contribution to the team, Coulthard was asked to pull over. The extra points would not have affected his championship position and Coulthard could hardly claim to be the deserved winner either as Villeneuve let both McLarens past as part of their pre-race agreement. Senna was asked to do the same for Berger in 1990, as it would have changed very little, to thank him for his efforts that season.

DC likes push, Mika likes pull, (that sounds rude), your chief designer doesn't design a neutral car, he designs a car with pull, (overstear, the way fins like to drive).

If that's not an equipment advantage I don't know what is?

It is impossible for a team to design two cars so the team have to choose one design or the other. They felt Hakkinen was faster and the all round better driver so choose to design a car with oversteer. As I've said, any good driver can adapt their style and, in fact, they usually have to. Hakkinen had to change his driving style for DTM, Alonso and Raikkonen had to adjust their driving styles for this season. The fact Coulthard couldn't do that shows he's only an average driver.

Also, McLaren are human. It is impossible to get perfect equality in a team. Somebody will have to come into the pits first and occasionally teammates made need to lend a hand to one another, just as Massa did for Raikkonen last season. Them not doing that would have been foolish. Therefore, so far as you can equality McLaren will do so for both its drivers. Both are given the same time and equipment to compete for victories and championships and pit stop strategies are worked out fair as well.

To finish off, this issue again exposes what hypocrites there are around. People say McLaren lost the championship because of their policy of driver equality and they should change it and, on the other hand, they say McLaren are not equal enough! Make your minds up!

OK, Mika may not have had a better engine or newer parts, but when you've got a chap as skillful as Adrian Newey designing cars for your personal driving style that is an advantage. McLaren knew Mika was quicker and engineered equipment to maximise the skill gap between the two drivers.

Mika was McLaren's "preferred" driver then, if you don't like me using the term "number 1".

If you're saying I'm hypocritical then I fail to see how?

I am not saying McLaren should or shouldn't have complete driver equality, I'm saying why advertise you have complete driver equality when you obviously don't. I don't like the phrases "McLaren have always had complete driver equality", because they haven't.

McLaren's biggest problem in 2007 was Hamilton was just too damn quick.

If I had to put money on it I would say Ron Dennis knows there are just as many people who hated Ferrari/Shumacher as there were that loved them, for whatever reason. I'm sure the ratio's of love/hate in Italy are different to those in England, however McLaren is an English team and a lot of criticism for the Ferrari/Schumacher relationship was the preferrential treatment Ferrari showed Schumacher. Ron is cashing in on this criticism and trying to win votes by saying his drivers are allowed to race without orders.

[racechick]

It has been pointed out many times that Rd did not expect to win the appeal merely to draw attention to hypocrisy and corruption.
Rd is the team boss whose colleagues fully support him. His policy has not failed and why should he go? says who??
I can understand McLaren Fan's point RD is crticised for not appointing a number one then crticised for having a number one. Well he can't be doing both can he??

[McLaren Fan]

As I said, I don't care about driver equality - it's illusory anyway - it's a non-issue for me. What I take issue with is this your broad accusation:

Well you raised the issue on the wrong thread.

I'm saying they screwed up, again, in many ways. RD lost the plot - he needs to go and with him his failed policy and unfair/disingenuous way of doing things.

I have posted several things about this before. You just won't listen.

McLaren... engineered equipment to maximise the skill gap between the two drivers.

This is your reasoning behind it. I've suggested mine which, although not proven, is probably the largest factor in the team's decision.

If I had to put money on it I would say Ron Dennis knows there are just as many people who hated Ferrari/Shumacher as there were that loved them, for whatever reason. I'm sure the ratio's of love/hate in Italy are different to those in England, however McLaren is an English team and a lot of criticism for the Ferrari/Schumacher relationship was the preferrential treatment Ferrari showed Schumacher. Ron is cashing in on this criticism and trying to win votes by saying his drivers are allowed to race without orders.

If Ron Dennis was worried about popularity he would never have challenged Eccelestone and the FIA over the break-away series amongst several other things.

In short, as far as you can get equality in this world, McLaren provide it.

[deMuRe]

In short, as far as you can get equality in this world, McLaren provide it.

That's a really interesting statement with a big grey area.

If Ron Dennis was worried about popularity he would never have challenged Eccelestone and the FIA over the break-away series amongst several other things.

He pissed the establishment off so much they started their own magazine which pretty much had dirt on Ron Dennis each issue. I sort of felt sorry for him at the time because everyone has dirty laundry.

[racechick]

Who was the editor Max Mosely?

[texasmr2]

You were wrong about Todt yesterday and DD has posted something irrelevant to this topic, knowing he has been defeated and is looking to wind up people. I am putting across the truth of the matter, something some people cannot accept. Ron Dennis may have overstepped the mark in some of his last posts on here, but often he was correct a lot of the time and was banned partly for that.This forum is becoming slightly tiresome. One cannot have a proper debate, things go round in circles and, should you lose your temper, you run the risk of being banned.

Your post get more and more like RD's because he thought, like you, that his opinion was FACT and god forbid anyone who disagree's with said opinion. I for one am fed-up to the gill's with McLaren 'lamb's', thank's RD , such as you who berate, chastise, belittle and disrespect everyone else's opinion's.

Ron Dennis may have overstepped the mark in some of his last posts on here, but often he was correct a lot of the time and was banned partly for that.

RD has alot of knowledge but what good is it if it's completely and utterly a one sided debate? Also your fooling yourself because you overlooked the main contributing factor to his BAN.

This forum is becoming slightly tiresome. One cannot have a proper debate, things go round in circles and, should you lose your temper, you run the risk of being banned.

If it's becoming tiresome for you I'm sorry we all cannot agree with all your post and opinion's I suggest turning off your computer, have a drink or two and chillout. Then log back on while trying to remember all of our opinion's count, not just your's.
The risk of being banned is no one's fault but that member's. To tell a member, regardless if they are a mod/admin, by saying "you are a disgrace" is a total lack of respect for anyone.

I'm finished and I hope we can just come to term's and say we 'agree to disagree' but I get the feeling my 'white flag' will mean nothing to you but I hope it does just alittle. I'm still gonna make you copy's of my old F1 race's because nothing I have said is 'peronal'.

[deMuRe]

They had a couple of different editors, Nigel Mansell was one of them, I think Lauda started editing but he was busy running an F1 team at the time. But yes, lots of articles from Max and Bernie and it was very FIA friendly.

To be honest, it was probably the most revealing read I've ever had from an F1 magazine. It wasn't polished and it wasn't afraid to publish some contraversial issues.

Best article I ever read was a huge special they had on the time Jaguar tried to poach Adrian Newey. They revealed that Bobby Rahal only got the nod to run Jaguar because he was friends with Adrian Newey and it was his task to poach Adrian. At the time the pitlane believed the only way to beat Schumacher was in an Adrian Newey car, which ran true for several years.

It was Lauda that called Ron Dennis on the phone and gave him a heads up on what Adrian was doing, which gave Ron time to react before Adrian signed anything too legally binding. Lauda had his own ideas on running an F1 team and wanted to see Bobby fail.

A really cool magazine and I was sorry to see it go.