FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[sagi58]

But Ferrari havent laughed much in the last decade. They definetely havent been laughing last.

I didn't realize that this was the last season?

Fact - It is until another season starts

Fact: Semantics!!

[spankyham]

... Given, not stolen, and not used....

If I agreed with you on these ....... we'd both be wrong

...And I'm hoping Lewis bests everyone after he joins Ferrari

I'm ok with this

[bud]

Just to prove the disparity and hidden agenda by Moselys FIA and Ferrari, one just had to look at the lack of punishment received by Renault for having data from another team.

[LewEngBridewell]

Just to prove the disparity and hidden agenda by Moselys FIA and Ferrari, one just had to look at the lack of punishment received by Renault for having data from another team.

Am I correct in recalling that Toyota were in possession of data from another team also? They too, went unpunished.

[bud]

Just to prove the disparity and hidden agenda by Moselys FIA and Ferrari, one just had to look at the lack of punishment received by Renault for having data from another team.

Am I correct in recalling that Toyota were in possession of data from another team also? They too, went unpunished.

You would be 100% correct, ex Ferrari employees used and produced a car for Toyota based on Ferrari designs unlike McLaren. But Ferrari didn't push that one to the FIA because they wouldn't benefit in any way from Toyota being punished too severely. They left it for the legal system.

[sagi58]

Again, we are speculating at best!

It's much too simplistic to say that McLaren was targeted and that Ferrari pulled the trigger.

NONE of us know what was going on behind closed doors!

[CookinFlat6]

Again, we are speculating at best!

It's much too simplistic to say that McLaren was targeted and that Ferrari pulled the trigger.

NONE of us know what was going on behind closed doors!

Agreed. The only thing we know as a fact is that Ferrari have uniquely had special assistance, help and status

and we know that McLaren have received the largest fine in history

To suggest that any outcomes are not a result of those facts, or that outcomes are a result of unknown facts 'going on behind closed doors' is unfounded speculation

[sagi58]

Agreed. The only thing we know as a fact is that Ferrari have uniquely had special assistance, help andstatus

and we know that McLaren have received the largest fine in history

To suggest that any outcomes are not a result of those facts, or that outcomes are a result of unknown facts 'going on behind closed doors' is unfounded speculation

Your turn to be facetious, I guess, eh? This time, I'll play...

Well, Ferrari DOES have special status and you may as well accept it, even if you don't like it/agree with it, because it is what it is!

McLaren was fined heavily because of whatever it is that was discussed behind closed doors and again, even if you don't like it/agree with it, it is what it is.

All outcomes since then and all future outcomes do NOT stem from those facts, and that is what it is.

Anyway, have yourself a great day!!

[CookinFlat6]

If it was raining outside and Bob came inside wet would your logic say that he was wet because of things that went on in a secret meeting somewhere yet it was speculation to make a cause and effect link between the 2 facts: it's raining and bob got wet

Fact; Ferrari are uniquely assisted by the FIA
Fact; the FIA had discretion over the punishment and they hadn't similarly punished others previously
Fact; Ferrari was the biggest beneficiary of Mclarens punishment

But let's use logic from Venus and call casual linking of those facts mere speculation and claim other unknown facts from a secret meeting as valid

When it rains, people do get wet

[racechick]

Hey!! I'm from Venus! And I'm with you all the way on that travesty of justice that occurred in 2007!!

[vaptin]

F1 is pretty manipulated and corrupt it seems, I hope this isn't true (about Ferrari), but well it might be, and yes they do need to sort the rules and regulations out to try and ensure it is fair to all.

Sometimes it just feels the team who wins, are the ones who the regulations best suit, rather than build a car best suited that is within the rules. E.G. all these tyre changes.

But it would also be helpful I think, if people didn't pretend it was just Ferrari, though maybe it is generally more of them? Again, I suspect so (and it sucks IMO), but I think that's mainly because Ferrari are the biggest brand and longest serving team in F1.

If this stuff is really going to be stamped out, I think the fans have to take it seriously at all levels, not just pick to dislike it when it coincides with a team they dislike, but laugh about it when it is their favourite team - otherwise the issue just goes around in circles. I'm talking things such as fan loyalty, affiliation, all of which will affect viewing numbers, your value to marketing etc.

[spankyham]

Ferrari bring more fans to F1.
In F1 and other sports, some teams earn more than others.
In F1 Ferrari have the most fans, records and are the only team that has been there since the beginning.
As I said before, anyone unhappy about the fact that Ferrari have the most fans and get the most out of F1 then go cry me another river.

On 2007, nothing said changes these facts:-
1) McLaren knowingly received stolen goods.
2) McLaren lied about 1
3) McLaren admitted 1 & 2
4) McLaren lied about using the stolen goods
5) McLaren eventually admitted they used the stolen information
6) McLaren's 2007 car used Ferrari technology and know-how

Not many McLaren fans have the guts to admit to the above, but it doesn't change the truth of it.

AFAIC McLaren were punished, nowhere near what they should have been punished, but that decision was made, so, lets hope the team has learned and everyone should just move on.

[CookinFlat6]

Ferrari bring more fans to F1.

No one brings fans to F1. F1 brings fans to Ferrari - thats their whole raison d'etre - they are in F1 to sell cars, therefore F1 brings business to Ferrari

In F1 and other sports, some teams earn more than others.

Only through performance. Let us know which sport pays one team more regardless of performance

In F1 Ferrari have the most fans, records and are the only team that has been there since the beginning.

same as in other sports. Arsenal have been in the top flight English league uniquely since inception, other teams underperform and drop down, or go out of business. They dont get special assistance, vetos and extra money

As I said before, anyone unhappy about the fact that Ferrari have the most fans and get the most out of F1 then go cry me another river.

going by spend vs results, I wouldnt agree, otherwise we would not be witnessing the obvious frustration from team, drivers and fans

On 2007, nothing said changes these facts:-
1) McLaren knowingly received stolen goods.
2) McLaren lied about 1
3) McLaren admitted 1 & 2
4) McLaren lied about using the stolen goods
5) McLaren eventually admitted they used the stolen information
6) McLaren's 2007 car used Ferrari technology and know-how

They got a record fine, paid and are still there. Nothing changes that and the other facts you posted. However viewing the whole episode in posterity, the judge and jury, Max Mosely has since then been discredited, shown to have made mistakes in his role and forced to resign his position. It is therefore likely that he made a misjudgement with the bribegate affair. His position as FIA head became untenable when several teams and motoring bodies withdrew support citing excessive, unfair and arbitrary enforcement methods.
The record books tell us that McLaren won the WDC the year after their record fine.

Not many McLaren fans have the guts to admit to the above, but it doesn't change the truth of it.

See previous point

AFAIC McLaren were punished, nowhere near what they should have been punished, but that decision was made, so, lets hope the team has learned and everyone should just move on.

Everyone has moved on, however the circumstances that created unfair penalties for one team and favouritism for another team, and led to the demise of Max Mosely still remain.
With the ex Ferrari TP in power at the FIA, and the counter balance of the FOM leadership controlled by a veto and with one team having wrecked the FOTA, then it remains a 'competition' where the referee is wearing a red shirt, yet is unable to engineer a win.

Everyone has moved on, its Ferrari complaining that they dont win despite.....

[racechick]

The guts bit.... It's nothing to do with guts, more to do with blazing outrage. It wasn't fair and however you like to twist it it remains unfair and Unjust.

[bud]

With all the extra benefits Ferrari receive is just goes to show how pathetic they are by being beaten by an energy drink.

Same for all or not at all!!!