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[What's Burning?]

The funny thing about it is that my preferred outcome would have been for Lewis to remain at McLaren.
c'est la vie.

[Hammer278]

The funny thing about it is that my preferred outcome would have been for Lewis to remain at McLaren.
c'est la vie.

....to win a few races per season and forget about Championships? I think Lewis got his preferred outcome in the end.

[Jabberwocky]

The funny thing about it is that my preferred outcome would have been for Lewis to remain at McLaren.
c'est la vie.

Why?

[What's Burning?]

I think that no one over the course of a season can out manufacture Mclaren. Team may keep up, leap, but I believe Mclaren is the constructor that year in and year out makes the most gains on the car they show up with. 2009 is proof of that. They turned that car into a race winning car towards the end of the year.

[Hammer278]

I think that no one over the course of a season can out manufacture Mclaren. Team may keep up, leap, but I believe Mclaren is the constructor that year in and year out makes the most gains on the car they show up with. 2009 is proof of that.

I think everyone believed this until this year. It's the first time McLaren had the best car at Race 1, and got out-developed and outfoxed. Where's the hope left, when the one time you are in prime seat, you f**k it up after years of waiting. Lewis probably knows Whitmarsh isn't cut out to be a boss of a top team. The guy seems too soft and more focused on PR rather than race wins.

[Jabberwocky]

They still seem to design, on good and then one dog of a car though.

[What's Burning?]

I think that no one over the course of a season can out manufacture Mclaren. Team may keep up, leap, but I believe Mclaren is the constructor that year in and year out makes the most gains on the car they show up with. 2009 is proof of that.

I think everyone believed this until this year. It's the first time McLaren had the best car at Race 1, and got out-developed and outfoxed. Where's the hope left, when the one time you are in prime seat, you f**k it up after years of waiting. Lewis probably knows Whitmarsh isn't cut out to be a boss of a top team. The guy seems too soft and more focused on PR rather than race wins.

See I don't think so.
McLaren this year has not been out developed. They've been out managed, out strategized, out pit stopped (the early part of the year) and have made silly SILLY mistakes, but they haven't been out developed.

[racechick]

I think that no one over the course of a season can out manufacture Mclaren. Team may keep up, leap, but I believe Mclaren is the constructor that year in and year out makes the most gains on the car they show up with. 2009 is proof of that.

I think everyone believed this until this year. It's the first time McLaren had the best car at Race 1, and got out-developed and outfoxed. Where's the hope left, when the one time you are in prime seat, you f**k it up after years of waiting. Lewis probably knows Whitmarsh isn't cut out to be a boss of a top team. The guy seems too soft and more focused on PR rather than race wins.

See I don't think so.
McLaren this year has not been out developed. They've been out managed, out strategized, out pit stopped (the early part of the year) and have made silly SILLY mistakes, but they haven't been out developed.

They wasted it!!!! Such a shame. And you know I think Lewis' preferred option would have been to stay at Mclaren, but not Mclaren as they've become. This is McLaren Jim, but not as we know it !

[f1ea]

You need to sort yourself out. I've never ascribed to conspiracy theories, have vehemently denied them .
My views on team order remain the same. I don't like them, don't think they are necessary and .certainly don't expect Lewis to have team orders issued in his favour.. So what is it you think Lewis deserves?or think his fans think he deserves? I think he deserves no more or less than any of the other drivers.
I resent your continued references to dishonest fans. I'm not dishonest.
And back to Bud. I Respect Bud but don't always agree with him. My response if you bother to read it was in response to Bud's, which blamed Leiws for a lack of championships and exonerated Mclaren. I gave the other view. Why is one honest and one dishonest?
Stop calling me dishonest or give me some evidence to support this theory of yours.

Answering this post will take a bit of effort; but im on a phone and busy right now. So i will answer and provide evidence when i have more time, and my hands on a PC.

Anyway, just so you know, a dishonest fan, within the context i'm referring to... has nothing to do with being personally dishonest.

[racechick]

I'm neither.

[vaptin]

Come on guys (and girl) it's just arguing now for the sake of beating or getting one over the over person, it's not going anywhere in terms of a discussion, just getting increasingly personal drop it perhaps? Don't make me call for a security council resolution, although I think a civil monitoring group should be put in place for the ceasefire

[racechick]

You're right Vaptin. I've said all I'm going to say.

[LewEngBridewell]

Come on guys (and girl) it's just arguing now for the sake of beating or getting one over the over person, it's not going anywhere in terms of a discussion, just getting increasingly personal drop it perhaps? Don't make me call for a security council resolution, although I think a civil monitoring group should be put in place for the ceasefire

Tell me about it vaptin. Once again, THIS is the thread that has expanded by 3 more pages today, and it's all bickering. Give me strength...

[What's Burning?]

Come on guys (and girl) it's just arguing now for the sake of beating or getting one over the over person, it's not going anywhere in terms of a discussion, just getting increasingly personal drop it perhaps? Don't make me call for a security council resolution, although I think a civil monitoring group should be put in place for the ceasefire

Tell me about it vaptin. Once again, THIS is the thread that has expanded by 3 more pages today, and it's all bickering. Give me strength...

now I see why you get your strength from excessive alcohol consumption?

[CookinFlat6]

I think that no one over the course of a season can out manufacture Mclaren. Team may keep up, leap, but I believe Mclaren is the constructor that year in and year out makes the most gains on the car they show up with. 2009 is proof of that. They turned that car into a race winning car towards the end of the year.

I think that has been the case for a while now, McLaren made the right moves and capitalised on engineering contracts and developed a good business.

However I also believe that they have evolved recently, and not for the better neccesarily. Like Williams found, its a fine line between being a bespoke engineering unit that picks up rich contracts and is backed up by the racing success and backers/sponsors and losing some focus which then leads to less success and less top staff and less sponsors etc

The road car division, the MTC, the global car industry consolidation, money is now a real issue (even more) and paying for engines when the manufacturer controls a sellers market, all of these things are leading to a sea change. McLaren have been very lucky with the dice for the last couple of decades, but practical F1 has no real longterm memory when it comes to past achievements.
We can no longer judge McLaren by the old standards, only by the pattern developing in front of our eyes, we know lots of engineers have left for Ferrari, we haven't heard of top guys coming in from other teams, only the team getting second tier workers and then glossing over the fact, like Sam, he wasnt exactly poached from Williams
Staff making errors across the field, from mechanics to wheel guys, to strategists etc, want to be the best? you poach the best or hire the best, which costs a bit more than your competitors are willing to pay

The engineering prowess of Mclaren is a factor of its staff not the fancy building they wok in, money talks, money pays wages, and once Mclaren start to lag behind in what they offer, the brightest boys will be at Ferrari, Red Bull, Merc. It wont be enough to say, we are Mclaren come to us for a lower wage as we won a lot 20 years ago.

They tried that stuff with Lewis and he walked,the Neweys etc are not going to work at McLaren because of its past history, they will be doing it for themselves. And McLaren will be left with the journeymen and the merely competent.

A whole team of Nogrips