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[Hammer278]

Nice way to close off another clueless post....obviously you're posting in this thread just to rile people up. It's way too obvious mate, let go of the hate already.

Several peple have commented already. None of them were "riled up". The post was a very long one, but you choose to make a truly clueless comment on the least relevant of sentences, to then "decide" on the intention of my post.

Talk about clueless......

By several, you mean racechick? She basically corrected you in her post, she's just a lot more polite than I am...to translate her post, you don't know what you're talking about. I call it 'clueless'. Same difference.

[racechick]

Buds a McLaren fan. Next year he'll be supporting Button and Perez. Yes he's an honest fan, an honest McLaren fan. I'm a Lewis fan and next year I'll be supporting Lewis. Don't tell me I'm not an honest Lewis fan.

He's a Lewis fan too. I've seen 'im.

You are a Lewis fan. But double standared. Sorry, can't be honest if your views on team mistakes, team orders, team support and so on keep changing, and driver mistakes are consistently selective

I didn't site any specific driver mistakes in the post you objected to, so how can they be selective? There's no double standards going on with me and I haven't changed my views on team orders. Bud is a McLaren supporter, you've seen him supporting Lewis because Lewis has driven for Mclaren all his F1 career and while I'm sure he respects Lewis' skills and enjoys his driving, next year his support will go to Button and Perez at McLaren.. Can you not distinguish between a driver supporter and a team supporter?

[racechick]

@Myown but Lewis is in F1, that's a silly argument. You don't know what would have happened if Mclaren hadn't sponsored him. Maybe Mercedes would have done it on their own and the whole outfit would now be dominating. You can't argue what might have, only what is.

Why is it a silly argument? we don't know what would have happened; but you can not argue about the fact that if McLaren hadn't picked up Lewis early on; his path into F1 would have been much tougher; chances are; he would not have walked into top drive; which probably would have meant that his 2008 world title wouldn't have happened in all likelyhood. It's wholly unfair to blame McLaren wholesale for Lewis' failure to secure more than one title; although I will give you this year; McLaren have up way too much for a top team.

I'm not blaming McLaren wholesale, read what I said again. And what I said was actually in response to Bud blaming Hamilton for most of the woes, you cant have this both ways.But Lewis' path to F1 is irrelevant . If he hadn't been good enough he would have been dropped, and he could easily have gone with a different team. He owes McLaren nothing .

[f1ea]

Nice way to close off another clueless post....obviously you're posting in this thread just to rile people up. It's way too obvious mate, let go of the hate already.

Several peple have commented already. None of them were "riled up". The post was a very long one, but you choose to make a truly clueless comment on the least relevant of sentences, to then "decide" on the intention of my post.

Talk about clueless......

By several, you mean racechick? She basically corrected you in her post, she's just a lot more polite than I am...to translate her post, you don't know what you're talking about. I call it 'clueless'. Same difference.

Nope. By several i mean the several people who posted without being riled up, and the several others that won't.

Racechick didn't correct me on her post, i'm just not going to go over all that's been said countless times.

Just because YOU get riled up and have to resort to "less politeness" doesnt mean you have accurately translated her post. It doesn't make it the 'same difference'; just shows the conversation is waaaaay over you.

[Hammer278]

Nice way to close off another clueless post....obviously you're posting in this thread just to rile people up. It's way too obvious mate, let go of the hate already.

Several peple have commented already. None of them were "riled up". The post was a very long one, but you choose to make a truly clueless comment on the least relevant of sentences, to then "decide" on the intention of my post.

Talk about clueless......

By several, you mean racechick? She basically corrected you in her post, she's just a lot more polite than I am...to translate her post, you don't know what you're talking about. I call it 'clueless'. Same difference.

Nope. By several i mean the several people who posted without being riled up, and the several others that won't.

Racechick didn't correct me on her post, i'm just not going to go over all that's been said countless times.

Just because YOU get riled up and have to resort to "less politeness" doesnt mean you have accurately translated her post. It doesn't make it the 'same difference'; just shows the conversation is waaaaay over you.

I will never get riled up over anything Mr Clueless has to say....since I know his sole objective is to just talk trash in the Lewis thread. Sucks to be you mate.

Anyway, I'm done wasting time with Clueless....nice vid here courtesy of Racechick!

[youtube]LuLIWUdmUE0[/youtube]

[f1ea]

I didn't site any specific driver mistakes in the post you objected to, so how can they be selective? There's no double standards going on with me and I haven't changed my views on team orders. Bud is a McLaren supporter, you've seen him supporting Lewis because Lewis has driven for Mclaren all his F1 career and while I'm sure he respects Lewis' skills and enjoys his driving, next year his support will go to Button and Perez at McLaren.. Can you not distinguish between a driver supporter and a team supporter?

Im not basing my opinions on just that one post. You have been blatantly selective in the way you see mistakes and car/team problems. But i wont go over all that cause a small look back into your posts already show this.

You have changed your views on team orders because you have said many tines that the drivers should be allowed to race and that there should not be a #1/2 driver. That there should be no driver favouritism, and yet that is exactly what you want for your driver; not because i say it, but because you have already said it countless times (which I will not delve into in detail now!)

The moment it doesn't look remotely close to what you believe he "deserves" you blame it on bromances and even the team sabotaging his race craft. Yet, never quite look at the real reasons why it isn't actually given to him.

What he thinks he deserves and what the 'fans' think he deserves... Well Lewis has had about 5 seasons to prove he really deserves it. So far he hasn't. So demanding it just because... i call it dishonest and disrespectful to all the other drivers.

About Bud, i wont go over it, because im sure he can say what he feels. I know he is a fan regardless of the team he is in, even if his biggest interest is Mclaren. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive, as the dishonest fans have made it out to be. As long as the whole conspiracy theories don't stem from Lewis' mouth, i don't think any Mclaren fan has to believe it should be one vs "the others".

[Jabberwocky]

I suppose if you think about it if a driver can build a team around him and make a success of it, a driver can also destroy a team!

What are you accusing Button of?

nothing, I was just posting a thought, as everyone seems to think that it is Mclaren causing all the problems. A bad workman blames his tools...

[Jabberwocky]

Enough of the name calling! I am sure you guys will agree that a few days fishing trip at the moment would mean that you would miss a GP weekend and that would be unfortunate.

[What's Burning?]

I suppose if you think about it if a driver can build a team around him and make a success of it, a driver can also destroy a team!

What are you accusing Button of?

nothing, I was just posting a thought, as everyone seems to think that it is Mclaren causing all the problems. A bad workman blames his tools...

and a miss managed shop blames the workers.

(and this part of the response is not meant towards jabber.)

The point here is that why do we have to keep the incessant merry-go-round. It's primarily a SUPPORT thread. I respect people's opinion coming and saying why they don't support Lewis, and leaving, there's nothing gained by what is obviously coming here to incite or troll just stir the pot. It's fun every once in a while but not when your entire existence in the forum is for that sole purpose.

get a life. or just go post in the support threads of the f@king drivers you support or the f@king teams you support and your blood pressure and general quality of life will improve.

This is ridiculous and makes simply having a discussion impossible. if you say something smart, believe me it doesn't need to be repeated. if you say something asinine, repeating it all you want won't make it true, wont make it valid and wont make it any more likely to be accepted.

[f1ea]

I suppose if you think about it if a driver can build a team around him and make a success of it, a driver can also destroy a team!

What are you accusing Button of?

nothing, I was just posting a thought, as everyone seems to think that it is Mclaren causing all the problems. A bad workman blames his tools...

and a miss managed shop blames the workers.

(and this part of the response is not meant towards jabber.)

The point here is that why do we have to keep the incessant merry-go-round. It's primarily a SUPPORT thread. I respect people's opinion coming and saying why they don't support Lewis, and leaving, there's nothing gained by what is obviously coming here to incite or troll just stir the pot. It's fun every once in a while but not when your entire existence in the forum is for that sole purpose.

get a life. or just go post in the support threads of the f@king drivers you support or the f@king teams you support and your blood pressure and general quality of life will improve.

This is ridiculous and makes simply having a discussion impossible. if you say something smart, believe me it doesn't need to be repeated. if you say something asinine, repeating it all you want won't make it true, wont make it valid and wont make it any more likely to be accepted.

Sorry; but i post in the threads i f@cking choose to. In the manner i f@cking choose to and i can repeat what i think as much as i f@cking please.

Just because YOU don't find it appealing, doesn't mean it is trolling or to incite people. As Racechick just proved, people can have a disagreeing conversation without having to censor words. So get a life for yourself, instead of telling people what to do with theirs.

[Jabberwocky]

I suppose if you think about it if a driver can build a team around him and make a success of it, a driver can also destroy a team!

What are you accusing Button of?

nothing, I was just posting a thought, as everyone seems to think that it is Mclaren causing all the problems. A bad workman blames his tools...

and a miss managed shop blames the workers.

How does that work? If the workers are bad why did the managers employ the workers? If the workers have turned bad, it is usually low morale which again will mean that they are miss managed.

Did Mclaren employ a bad worker? or did Mclaren de-moralise Lewis?

Do you know what, I have mulled that statement over, and for some reason I just can not get an answer.

Mclaren, do they employ bad drivers? When did they last employ a driver who you did not think deserve to be in a top team? I can not remember one, I did think that they made a mistake signing Kovi, but they rebuilt him like the bionic man, after he had been destroyed in Flavio's dictatorship of Renault (like a lot of other drivers did) however Kovi he began to show his speed until he was demoralised by the Lewis onslaught. Could Mclaren of stopped Kovi's chin dropping? I would say probably not. I suppose you could say Kovi was fast but mentally fragile.

Mclaren like Ferrari do not seem to like signing rookies, maybe the whole Lewis problem stems from that, maybe Lewis does not realise how lucky he has been always being in a big team! So because Mclaren have not produced the car to win the last 5 WDC, He is feeling demorolised. Where a drivers like Alonso, Schumacher, and Kimi. Did their apprenticeship in mid and lower field teams, so they appreciate what they have.

At the end of the day no one can deny if you like him or not the he is fast. I honestly think that the Mercedes move is right for him.

[Jabberwocky]

Right lets keep this on topic

[What's Burning?]

I suppose if you think about it if a driver can build a team around him and make a success of it, a driver can also destroy a team!

What are you accusing Button of?

nothing, I was just posting a thought, as everyone seems to think that it is Mclaren causing all the problems. A bad workman blames his tools...

and a miss managed shop blames the workers.

How does that work? If the workers are bad why did the managers employ the workers? If the workers have turned bad, it is usually low morale which again will mean that they are miss managed.

Did Mclaren employ a bad worker? or did Mclaren de-moralise Lewis?

Do you know what, I have mulled that statement over, and for some reason I just can not get an answer.

Mclaren, do they employ bad drivers? When did they last employ a driver who you did not think deserve to be in a top team? I can not remember one, I did think that they made a mistake signing Kovi, but they rebuilt him like the bionic man, after he had been destroyed in Flavio's dictatorship of Renault (like a lot of other drivers did) however Kovi he began to show his speed until he was demoralised by the Lewis onslaught. Could Mclaren of stopped Kovi's chin dropping? I would say probably not. I suppose you could say Kovi was fast but mentally fragile.

Mclaren like Ferrari do not seem to like signing rookies, maybe the whole Lewis problem stems from that, maybe Lewis does not realise how lucky he has been always being in a big team! So because Mclaren have not produced the car to win the last 5 WDC, He is feeling demorolised. Where a drivers like Alonso, Schumacher, and Kimi. Did their apprenticeship in mid and lower field teams, so they appreciate what they have.

At the end of the day no one can deny if you like him or not the he is fast. I honestly think that the Mercedes move is right for him.

Oh I can give you plenty of reasons how bad management can ruin a work environment. You've never had a bad boss? Or a person in charge of a division that you didn't agree with their style or management? It goes both ways. And you either take it and grumble and complain... or you leave.

I agree at this point I think Lewis is doing what he feels is best for himself, and I'm glad he's not burning any bridges with McLaren. I'm glad he's not bad mouthing them or saying anything malicious... yikes... could you imagine this place if that was the case? When in doubt, take the high road and I think both McLaren and Lewis have chosen to do just that.

[racechick]

I didn't site any specific driver mistakes in the post you objected to, so how can they be selective? There's no double standards going on with me and I haven't changed my views on team orders. Bud is a McLaren supporter, you've seen him supporting Lewis because Lewis has driven for Mclaren all his F1 career and while I'm sure he respects Lewis' skills and enjoys his driving, next year his support will go to Button and Perez at McLaren.. Can you not distinguish between a driver supporter and a team supporter?

Im not basing my opinions on just that one post. You have been blatantly selective in the way you see mistakes and car/team problems. But i wont go over all that cause a small look back into your posts already show this.

You have changed your views on team orders because you have said many tines that the drivers should be allowed to race and that there should not be a #1/2 driver. That there should be no driver favouritism, and yet that is exactly what you want for your driver; not because i say it, but because you have already said it countless times (which I will not delve into in detail now!)

The moment it doesn't look remotely close to what you believe he "deserves" you blame it on bromances and even the team sabotaging his race craft. Yet, never quite look at the real reasons why it isn't actually given to him.

What he thinks he deserves and what the 'fans' think he deserves... Well Lewis has had about 5 seasons to prove he really deserves it. So far he hasn't. So demanding it just because... i call it dishonest and disrespectful to all the other drivers.

About Bud, i wont go over it, because im sure he can say what he feels. I know he is a fan regardless of the team he is in, even if his biggest interest is Mclaren. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive, as the dishonest fans have made it out to be. As long as the whole conspiracy theories don't stem from Lewis' mouth, i don't think any Mclaren fan has to believe it should be one vs "the others".

You need to sort yourself out. I've never ascribed to conspiracy theories, have vehemently denied them .
My views on team order remain the same. I don't like them, don't think they are necessary and .certainly don't expect Lewis to have team orders issued in his favour.. So what is it you think Lewis deserves?or think his fans think he deserves? I think he deserves no more or less than any of the other drivers.
I resent your continued references to dishonest fans. I'm not dishonest.
And back to Bud. I Respect Bud but don't always agree with him. My response if you bother to read it was in response to Bud's, which blamed Leiws for a lack of championships and exonerated Mclaren. I gave the other view. Why is one honest and one dishonest?
Stop calling me dishonest or give me some evidence to support this theory of yours.

[Jabberwocky]

Oh I can give you plenty of reasons how bad management can ruin a work environment. You've never had a bad boss? Or a person in charge of a division that you didn't agree with their style or management? It goes both ways. And you either take it and grumble and complain... or you leave.

I agree at this point I think Lewis is doing what he feels is best for himself, and I'm glad he's not burning any bridges with McLaren. I'm glad he's not bad mouthing them or saying anything malicious... yikes... could you imagine this place if that was the case? When in doubt, take the high road and I think both McLaren and Lewis have chosen to do just that.

I was agreeing that Managers can not blame the work force really. I think that is why Mclaren never sign rookies. So they can see what drivers are like, things like the romours the PDR is a bit of a diva behind clothes door probably is the reason Perez and the Hulk got the nod.