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[mnmracer]

I think the difference between the Schumacher domination and the current years is that Schumacher's number two driver, had all the tools to beat him. It's clear Webber doesn't have the same tools.

Let's ask Rubinho:
“When I signed the contract, there was nothing to indicate that the drivers would be treated differently. Inside, I was often angry about it, because everyone claimed that there were no differences between us, but it was an unequal battle,”

Swap Schumi for Senna

add a little bit of Honda

and tell me why you're not also blasting Senna.

[mnmracer]

In the Red Bull era, since 2011 I've seen Vettel win about 4, perhaps 5 races, the car has won the rest. Difficult to compare someone to the greats with that kind of mechanical advantage as a component.

So how many would you say 'the greats' won not because of the car?
Nostalgia is a nice thing, but if you're trying to tell yourself 'the greats' won the majority in off-pace cars, you might want to check the history books again.

Isnt that what weve got you for...? You are our resident stats man!

Some people here have a nasty habit of retro-actively trying to change history rather than base opinions on facts.
I might come back when I've got the stats for a lot more appreciative of them.

[What's Burning?]

In the Red Bull era, since 2011 I've seen Vettel win about 4, perhaps 5 races, the car has won the rest. Difficult to compare someone to the greats with that kind of mechanical advantage as a component.

So how many would you say 'the greats' won not because of the car?
Nostalgia is a nice thing, but if you're trying to tell yourself 'the greats' won the majority in off-pace cars, you might want to check the history books again.

I think it's been established that the car is the most important component to winning a race, but a driver does need to put it over the edge sometimes. The Red Bull isn't an on pace car, it's a dominant car, especially when they skirt the rules or outright cheat to gain that dominance. I've also seen a lot of the "greats" compete head to head with other greats in the same car, cars with the same firepower, and sometimes win and sometimes lose.

Webber doesn't always have the same car to Vettel does he now? When Vettel's car isn't superior, he struggles. No shame in that, it's what the driver is there to do. Win a car that's not superior. Did you see Alonso's performance last year? Think that Vettel would be able to come anywhere near that, when most of the time the guy is under pressure times he chokes?

Vettel is the winningest guy in recent history, but greatness IMO he's yet to prove.

[Jabberwocky]

Just to quantify this. With an extra 2 seconds a lap from the car. Luca Badoer would of qualified on pole for the 09 Belgium grand prix. Then brought the car home 6th in the race

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[What's Burning?]

Just to quantify this. With an extra 2 seconds a lap from the car. Luca Badoer would of qualified on pole for the 09 Belgium grand prix. Then brought the car home 6th in the race

and out of the points with Pirelli tires.

[CookinFlat6]

Looking at the claim that Seb is a great. This is based on a number of WDCs and wins. Yes a dominant car has allowed drivers to win in the past. heres the kicker

Every single driver who has won one WDC in a dominant car such as Button, J Villeneuve, D Hill and many others were just as great as Seb for 1 year. If they had continued to have the same dominant car for 4 years then by simple extrapolation they would be just as great as Seb is today

Therefore every driver who has won in a massively dominant car ( and we can say, a car that has shown a 2 sec advantage over others) would be as great as Seb had they been handed certain circumstances, such as a handicapped teammate (we know Webber matches Seb without handicaps)

Now the truly great drivers are not great because of such circumstances but because of driving ability, best demonstrated by their performance against the eras best drivers in the same car (thereby removing the circumstance of having a dominant car) not by having a dominant car for 1,2,3 or 7 years.

Seb is a great under certain circumstances, but has been shown to be average under the metric true greatness is measured by - an ability to beat top quality teammates fairly.

Seb needs Webber to be handicapped to beat him (as we saw in 2010) and Webber is not the top driver of the era. Seb is as great as Button except he has the 2 second car for longer

not comparable to Lewis who won in the second best car or to Alonso, both of whom have been tested against the best a la Senna/Prost

[LRW]

....Seb is as great as Button...

There have been some insults thrown around here before, but that one...?

[CookinFlat6]

Just stating the fact that Seb today is judged according to the same metric as Button - winning with a 2 second car advantage

He is not judged because he beat the topped ranked teammates, he is not ranked because he went to a bad team and turned them into champions, he is not ranked because he has won anything without a Newey car.

The only difference is Button had his 2 sec car for 1 season and Seb has had his for 3

also we have seen Button outdrive Seb on track a few times

i used to think Seb was exceptionally fast, however in light of many recent clues, i do not see a big gap between Seb, Webber or Button. Any one of them could win a WDC in a 2 sec car, indeed as 2 have, and Webber has been handicapped by his team as we saw in 2010 and since then has not had a hope in hell

[What's Burning?]

....Seb is as great as Button...

There have been some insults thrown around here before, but that one...?

I'm a glass half full kind of guy, so I read that as being the greatest compliment cookin has ever given Button.

[Denthúl]

The BGP001 doesn't exactly qualify as a "2 sec car", as you put it. Other than one occasion, during pre-season testing of all times, its pace advantage could never be measured in whole seconds per lap.

[mnmracer]

Rather than repeat the ludicrous broken record of "2 seconds", you can also just admit you're unwilling to have a quality debate.

[CookinFlat6]

The BGP001 doesn't exactly qualify as a "2 sec car", as you put it. Other than one occasion, during pre-season testing of all times, its pace advantage could never be measured in whole seconds per lap.

neither Button or Reubens are the fastest drivers around so its hard to say the car was definitely this much quicker etc. All we can go by are facts, the Brawn, and Red Bull are undeniably much much faster than the rest, and both pulled an effortless two second gap at least once. Therefore referring to them as 2 second cars, whilst open to pedantic or linguistic question is perfectly reasonable when generalising.

For the purposes and context of this debate, a 2 second car refers to cars famed for an abnormal and 'not within the spirit of the rules' advantage

In the Brawn case we saw both drivers way faster than the rest of the field at the start of the season. In the Red Bull case, we see both drivers pretty equal when they have the same advantages. So Webber would match or come just behind or ahead of Seb, like the 2 Brawn drivers. But we see most of the time since 2010 (Red Bull civil war) that only one car has been ahead of the field which distorts the picture a little, howvwer like in the last race we also see glimpses of the 1/2 ahead of the field.

Now there is no way Webber was suddenly a good driver again last race, matching Seb, therefore its all the car, he had the car (if not the team strategy)

So 2 second car = Red bull and Brawn and Fan car

[Hammer278]

To be fair, I'd never compare Vettel and Button...Vettel is leagues above Button in my view, and he's done more in terms of decimating his high profile teammate in Webber. Sure, the team views him as their favourite son and all that but Vettel has done some pretty good races (even from midfield) and it takes a high calibre driver to achieve what he's achieved. And the RB has not been 2 seconds faster throughout the last 3 years, it's just been quickest with a fantastic team backing him, and that's enough for a very strong driver to take advantage of.

If we put Vettel in the same car as Hamilton or Alonso, I'd say the battle will be close. Discounting his character and that nerdy school boy punchable face look, his skill behind the wheel can't be discredited. He's quick and consistent enough to be an F1 great, but it's still too soon to call him one even if he's achieved more than Hamilton and Alonso at this stage.

[Jabberwocky]

Surely if people are questioning his greatness he is not a great. Has anyone ever questioned the greatness of Fangio, Senna, Prost, Schumacher?

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[mnmracer]

Has anyone ever questioned the greatness of Schumacher?